Kitty eating foster dog!

[RawFedDogs]

Positive reinforcement.

[luvMyBRT]

Positive reinforcement.

LOL. No kidding. Positive reinforcement is a must when training. When I house broke her I used positive reinforcement. When I kennel trained her I used positive reinforcement. When I taught her to sit, stay, lay down, heel, come, I used positive reinforcement. I couldn't agree with you more.

Bringing a large, powerful, prey driven, fully mature, cat killing Rottweiler into my house for the first time had nothing to do with training. It had everything to do with me setting the ground rules and bounderies for living within my pack. It had everything to do with me establishing myself as the one in control, the alpha, the one who keeps peace within the pack. I came into the situation looking at it with a dogs mentality. The pack mentality. From a dog's point of view.

In the wild wolves live in packs. Coyotes live in packs. Wild dogs live in packs. Within each sucessful pack there is an alpha. It is the alpha's job to keep order and peace within the pack. It's the alpha's job to keep its pack safe. If there is no alpha then there is chaos within the pack until a new alpha is established.

It is my job to keep my pack safe and at peace. It is my job to present myself as the calm leader with a confident energy. If I had let Annie come into my home and had not established myself as the one in control it could have resulted in dog fights and 2 dead cats. If I had just let her chase my cats, hoping the cats would find a way to safety, there would have probably been 2 dead cats. I established with Annie from the moment she set foot into my house that I was going to keep everything peaceful and keep everyone safe. I would be in charge of keeping things in order and under control. This way she could concentrate on being a happy, well cared for dog who didn't have to worry about a thing for the first time in her life. She could become a balanced dog. She could, for the first time, feel that there was someone taking the alpha role and she wouldn't have to.

In my experience most dogs have no problem letting you be the leader if you gain their respect and trust the right way. NOT by being aggressive, mean or angry. By being a calm energy. Being assertive in a confident way. Following through with consistant discipline. The way an alpha wolf would be in the wild. Do the follower wolves seem or act unhappy? No way! I would be happy to follow a strong confident leader whom I trust and respect too! That would be the life!

As far as the pinch collar goes....I guess if I had to actually bite her I guess I could...LOL. Isn't that what a mama wolf would do to a young or adolecent pup who wasn't following the rules? Isn't that what the apha male wolf would do to any other pack member who was getting out of line? And I never said that dogs were stupid.

Now that being said....these are just my opinions and views on the topic. Some will agree and some will disagree. That's okay. Nothin' wrong with a friendly debate.

[RawFedDogs]

LOL. No kidding. Positive reinforcement is a must when training. When I house broke her I used positive reinforcement. When I kennel trained her I used positive reinforcement. When I taught her to sit, stay, lay down, heel, come, I used positive reinforcement. I couldn't agree with you more.

Great. I thought you might feel this way after reading some of your posts. Thats why the use of the pinch collar suprised me.

Bringing a large, powerful, prey driven, fully mature, cat killing Rottweiler into my house for the first time had nothing to do with training. It had everything to do with me setting the ground rules and bounderies for living within my pack. It had everything to do with me establishing myself as the one in control, the alpha, the one who keeps peace within the pack. I came into the situation looking at it with a dogs mentality. The pack mentality. From a dog's point of view.

Thats great if you still believe in the old outdated dominance theory. It has been determined through extensive research that the wolf pack in the wild is not like once thought. Yes, there is a alpha male & female but they are not the biggest meanest strongest SOBs in the pack. A wolf pack in the wild is made up of two wolves (the alpha pair) and their offspring. Mom and Dad don't lead by intimidation or coersion rather they are mentors through life to the kids. They are in charge because they are the oldest and have the most experience and knowledge. They know how to find prey and how to kill it. The others willingly follow because they know this and they are learning daily.

Dad "rolling" his offspring has never been observed in the wild. Instead what you see is the offspring approaching dad and rolling himself to show loyalty to dad. There is no need for intimidation in the actual wild wolf pack just as (I assume) there is no need for intimidation in your human family both now and when you were growing up.

The other old dominance theory came about by studying wolves in captivity where they were not a natural pack, rather a bunch of unrelated wolves thrown together in a VERY stressful situation. They became a uncontrolled mob and someone eventually emerges as leader.

It is my job to keep my pack safe and at peace. It is my job to present myself as the calm leader with a confident energy.

Yes, but that can be done just as effectively without using a pinch collar or any form of intimidation. I have introduced new dogs to my pack and I have found that the new dog is always willing to learn very quickly who is the leader and to follow this leader very easily without objecting. I have never had a dog enter my house expecting to be the alpha. They always realize upon setting foot into the house that I am the leader and mentor. I will teach him from the very beginning how to maintain order in our pack.

In your case, I would have put the cats somewhere safe when I brought him into the house. I would have introduced him to the cats in a calm nonthreatening manner. Never would I have tried to initmidate him with a pinch collar. Yes, you do this through body language and calm confidence but not with assertiveness.

If I had let Annie come into my home and had not established myself as the one in control it could have resulted in dog fights and 2 dead cats. If I had just let her chase my cats, hoping the cats would find a way to safety, there would have probably been 2 dead cats.

If you feel like that then your confidence was false and you knew it was false. You did not have the confidence to know you could control the situation or you would not have felt the need for the pinch collar. You used the pinch collar the way most people do, as a crutch. Yes, you establish yourself as the one in control but you can do it without intimidation. You do it through attidude. The dog will instantly know who is in charge by who is acting like they are in charge. No need for anything else.

She could become a balanced dog. She could, for the first time, feel that there was someone taking the alpha role and she wouldn't have to.

In my experience most dogs have no problem letting you be the leader if you gain their respect and trust the right way. NOT by being aggressive, mean or angry. By being a calm energy. Being assertive in a confident way. Following through with consistant discipline. The way an alpha wolf would be in the wild. Do the follower wolves seem or act unhappy? No way! I would be happy to follow a strong confident leader whom I trust and respect too! That would be the life!

Many of the words you use in this section as well as other times in this discussion tell me you may watch too much Discovery Channel and put too much trust in what you think you are seeing there. You are not seeing what you think you are seeing and much of the philosophy is outdated and self admittedly learned from Grandpa. All the theory expoused on that show are not wrong. Most is correct but the implimentation often unnesesarily uses aggression to accomplish it's goals.

As far as the pinch collar goes....I guess if I had to actually bite her I guess I could...LOL. Isn't that what a mama wolf would do to a young or adolecent pup who wasn't following the rules?

Yes, for a young pup but not for a more mature wolf. It isn't so much disciplining, rather teaching. Wolves/dogs don't have the ability to speak so they must teach by actions. Just think how much difficulty we would have in teaching our offspring if we couldn't speak. Wolves do an amazingly good job in raising their pups without using force. Mama biting on the neck isn't a painful thing like some people tend to think. Rather it is very light and not meant as punishment, rather a method to show by modeling the correct behavior.

Isn't that what the apha male wolf would do to any other pack member who was getting out of line?

Nope

Now that being said....these are just my opinions and views on the topic. Some will agree and some will disagree. That's okay. Nothin' wrong with a friendly debate.

Same here but I think my opinions are more educated. I'm glad we can discuss this in a civil manner without getting all excited.

[luvMyBRT]

Outdated dominance therory? I'm going to have to disagree with you there. When did the word "dominance" become a 4 letter word? All it is is calmly asserting yourself as the one in control of a pack of dogs. And who said anything about intimidation? I know I sure didn't.

Even though it has supposedly been determined through research that the wolf pack is not exactly like we initally thought, it doesn't change the fact that there are the more dominante and alpha roles who are in charge. Because they aren't the biggest, strongest SOB's of the group means nothing. They are alpha because they have the assertive energy and know how and the others of the pack recognize that and respect that.

It is fact that dogs are social pack animals. They have a pack mentality. It can't be avoided. In a pack there are leaders and followers. Plain and simple. I choose to assert myself as a leader and my dogs fall into the follower role. Easy as that. I don't use intimidation. I don't use a mean and angry assertiveness. I use a calm and confident assertiveness. One with kindness and the intention of doing what is right and familiar to a dogs way of thinking.

If I had been bringing a puppy or a familiar adult dog into my house I would not have felt the need for a pinch collar and wouldn't have used one. I don't feel the need to use one on my current dog and won't be using one with our new puppy.

The fact of the matter is that I was bringing a working type breed of dog with an intense prey drive into my house. A very strong dominante type breed that I knew nothing about. I knew nothing about her history. All I knew was that she had been abused and misstreated her entire life. All I knew was that she had chased down a cat and then followed through and killed it. She just didn't nudge it and then walk away. She came to my house with the mentality of cat = killing. She had never been taught to act any differently around a cat.

All the prong collar did was give me more control over her if I needed it. Working with a mature Rottweiler is different than working with a young Golden Retriever. Obviously a prong probably won't have been needed with a golden, but a misstreated aggressive prey driven Rottweiler, more likely. The prong collar wasn't a cruch and wasn't used as one. It wasn't used with the intention of crulty, intimidation and angry domination. And, amazingly enough, the dog didn't react negatively to it. Suprizing! Maybe it's because my energy behind it was calm and ment to help her. It was a tool used in teaching her.

I did put the cats in a safe place when first bringing her into the house. I did introduce them in a calm nonthreatening manner. What is body language and a calm confidence without assertiveness? There is nothing wrong with assertivness when used in the correct way. It's like saying "I really want you to get along...but....I don't really mean it. I won't follow through if there are problems because I think being assertive and taking control of the situation is mean."

Just because I am taking on the alpha role in my pack doesn't mean that I am doing so in a negative or disrespectful way. IMO, by doing so I am giving my dogs the utmost respect and love (so to speak). I am helping them to play and socalize with other dogs in a healthy way. I am creating healthy behaviors and making it easy for the dog to respond positively to training. I am relating to the dog in a way that he can understand and appreciate.

[RawFedDogs]

Outdated dominance therory? I'm going to have to disagree with you there. When did the word "dominance" become a 4 letter word? All it is is calmly asserting yourself as the one in control of a pack of dogs. And who said anything about intimidation? I know I sure didn't.

I think we are getting hung up on semantics here. Intimidation goes along with dominance. The two go hand in hand. Calmly asserting yourself as the one in control is called leadeship. Dominance says, "I'm gonna whoop yer butt if you don't do what I say." But again, we are quibbling over minor things like what each perceives words to mean.

Even though it has supposedly been determined through research that the wolf pack is not exactly like we initally thought, it doesn't change the fact that there are the more dominante and alpha roles who are in charge. Because they aren't the biggest, strongest SOB's of the group means nothing. They are alpha because they have the assertive energy and know how and the others of the pack recognize that and respect that.

They are alpha's ONLY because they are the Mama and Daddy wolves in the pack. No other reason. Just as your Mama and Daddy ruled your family. They didn't do anything to gain that authority except give birth to you and your siblings.

It is fact that dogs are social pack animals. They have a pack mentality. It can't be avoided. In a pack there are leaders and followers. Plain and simple. I choose to assert myself as a leader and my dogs fall into the follower role. Easy as that. I don't use intimidation. I don't use a mean and angry assertiveness. I use a calm and confident assertiveness. One with kindness and the intention of doing what is right and familiar to a dogs way of thinking.

When you put a pinch collar around a dog's neck, you are using intimidation. You use that pinch collar only because your confidence had gone out the window. If you were absolutely certain of your ability to handle the situation you would have never used it.

The fact of the matter is that I was bringing a working type breed of dog with an intense prey drive into my house. A very strong dominante type breed that I knew nothing about. I knew nothing about her history. All I knew was that she had been abused and misstreated her entire life. All I knew was that she had chased down a cat and then followed through and killed it. She just didn't nudge it and then walk away. She came to my house with the mentality of cat = killing. She had never been taught to act any differently around a cat.

Sometimes using positive motivation takes a little extra thinking and planning. We are smarter than dogs. We CAN outsmart them. We don't need pinch collars, choke chains, or electric collars to control them. If you had put your mind to it, you could have come up with a way to introduce them using completely positive methods.

All the prong collar did was give me more control over her if I needed it.

No, it gave YOU the confidence you needed to control the dog. You could have done it without the pinch collar if you had thought about it enough before undertaking the task. You just took the easy way out. The way that you didn't have to spend a lot of time and energy thinking and planning.

Working with a mature Rottweiler is different than working with a young Golden Retriever.

My dogs are Great Danes. I am familiar with working with both Goldens and huge working dogs. I have also worked with birds of prey who would really think nothing of killing the handler if they could. Birds of prey are never your best friend. I have observed and studied using positive motivation on 350lb gorillas, 8,000lb elephants, and 4,000 rhino's among other wild animals.

It was a tool used in teaching her.

Hehe, it was a tool used to give you enough confidence to teach her. She didn't need the collar, you did.

I did put the cats in a safe place when first bringing her into the house. I did introduce them in a calm nonthreatening manner. What is body language and a calm confidence without assertiveness? There is nothing wrong with assertivness when used in the correct way. It's like saying "I really want you to get along...but....I don't really mean it. I won't follow through if there are problems because I think being assertive and taking control of the situation is mean."

I have to admit our circumstances are different, but in my house, my dogs know that there are no unpleasant consequences if they make a mistake. They know the proper way to behave and they behave that way because they know it is what the are supposed to do. No other reason. They won't be punished if they behave in an inappropriate manner. Anytime they are unsure of what they should do, they turn and watch me for cues as to what they should do. 99% of the time all I have to do is move my hands in a certain way as if to direct traffic and they know what to do. I rarely have to use words to tell them. I snap my finger, point somewhere or move my hand in a particular motion and they know. It's very cool. I love not having to fuss at them.

Thats the neat thing about having two dogs who you have never hit, kicked, punched, thrown anything at, jerked on a leash, yelled at or done any other negative thing to ... ever. They do what I say without question or hesitation because they know I won't lead them wrong or get them into a bad situation. They trust me completely as I trust them completely. Very few people have experienced that type of bond with their dogs.

Just because I am taking on the alpha role in my pack doesn't mean that I am doing so in a negative or disrespectful way. IMO, by doing so I am giving my dogs the utmost respect and love (so to speak). I am helping them to play and socalize with other dogs in a healthy way. I am creating healthy behaviors and making it easy for the dog to respond positively to training. I am relating to the dog in a way that he can understand and appreciate.

I think we are doing close to the same thing but with a little different attitude. I don't consider myself Lord and Master of the Universe. I am not alpha. I am not boss. I am my dogs leader, teacher, and mentor. I don't train them. I teach and guide them. I think attitudewise there is a big difference.

[JayJayisme]

Sorry, couldn't resist.