Raw Photo Journal

[Kbug]

Someone suggested I start a photo diary....so I am. If the mods want to move the thread, go ahead.

Background Info: 4 dogs, all Yellow Lab or Yellow Lab mix.
Kaiden: Male, 6, 110 lbs (ideally 95), problems - overweight, yeasty ears, tartar buildup
Dixie: Female, 6, 75 - 80 lbs, problems - maybe a little chunky, tartar buildup
Aerith: Female, 2, 90 lbs (ideally 65) problems - obese, yeasty ears, tartar buildup, skin allergies
Fayt: Female, 6, 50 lbs (ideally 65) problems - diabetic, blind, underweight

So, here are my pictures. Right now I've just got a few of Fayt. I'll try to add more with the other pups and get some allergy, teeth and ear photos. Please ignore the mess in them...the first two are moving pictures. And the third is where Fayt knocked over the laundry basket that she couldn't see.

Fayt - Just home from the hospital from being diagnosed diabetic on Labor Day. You can see her spine if you look closely and you can see just how much of a haircut she got.


Fayt - One month home from the hospital. You can see how she still hasn't grown any fur back.


Fayt - Here is her on day 6 of PMR. You can see her spine and ribs really well here even though its blurry from her moving.


Fayt - A belly shot that shows her starting to get her coat back, finally, from day 6.


We are now on day 13 of raw. Fayt is still having good stools, soft after leg quarters but still formed and I'm not finding bone chips in it. I'm still playing with her insulin, but I've been giving her 5 3/4 units. I did a partial curve on her today and based on it I'll probably decrease her dose again. I'm still concerned about her weight but I talked with a vet (who didn't bite my head off about PMR; too bad she's a behaviorist/trainer not a general practitioner) and we both agreed that as long as she wasn't losing weight it was more important to keep the sugars steady and let the weight gain slowly. So, I'm feeding Fayt a "maintenance" amount of 2.5% of her ideal body weight. Since starting the raw she has been more consistent with her fasting blood sugars and stayed in the 220s fasting all last week. On the kibble she had a 100 point range for her fasting sugars. Here was her numbers for today:

0930 - 187 (yay! given meal)
1030 - 269
1100 - 205
1154 - 183 <--had to run errands so that is why the gap
1430 - 312 <--ended curve

So, what I'm assuming happened is that somewhere between 1200 and 1400 her blood sugars got to a range that her body no longer felt comfortable with (or dropped at to fast of a rate) and it dumped some glycogen to get the levels up. Its not uncommon that newly diagnosed dogs have to "learn" to use the insulin and that sometimes their body's no longer recognize "normal" levels in preference to higher glucose levels. Usually when they've gone undiagnosed for a long time. Over time they may learn to utilize the insulin better and move closer to "normal" ranges. Since she has such a strong initial reaction to the insulin I'm hoping a lower dose will level her out some while dropping her overall numbers.

As I said earlier, I'll try to get pics of the other pups tomorrow and get some more of Fayt as well.

Kbug

[DaneMama]

I'm so glad that Fayt is doing so well thus far! Her glucose curve actually looks pretty good to me. We do glucose curves on dogs (and cats) all the time at work and even on dogs that have been on insulin a long time their numbers are all over the place. Keep up the good work and I look forward to the next photo journal entry.

[Kbug]

Natalie,

That part of the curve looked great.....unfortunately I did finish out the curve and the rest of it isn't so great. Here is what it looked like:

1430 - 312
1600 - 267
1800 - 330
2000 - 331 (fed/insulin 2030)
2240 - 182

You can see how much and how fast she's dropping. I'm sure that is the source of my problem and the fact that she ping pongs indicates to me that there is still enough free insulin hanging around to do it all over again even 6 hours after injection. So, I'm reading this as too much insulin and dropping her dose.

Kbug

[monkeys23]

I'm glad she's doing better and I hope she continues to improve. I can't wait to see how she changes in pictures!

[magicre]

what's the magic number you're aiming for.

i know you want consistency.....but what is the range that is comfortable and good for the dog?

i know nothing about diabetes in dogs....

[Kbug]

what's the magic number you're aiming for.

i know you want consistency.....but what is the range that is comfortable and good for the dog?

i know nothing about diabetes in dogs....

The vets are happy with things between 200 and 300. 250 mg/dL is when organ damage can start. The renal threshold is 180 mg/dL and is when glucose starts spilling into the urine, so ideally below 180 as much as possible. Around 260 is when Fayt starts becoming "symptomatic" and begins to excessively drink.

Personally, I'd be happiest with numbers between 150 and 250 for most of the day. However, what I'm more concerned with is the shape of her curve. She goes up and down very fast, all day long. I would tolerate higher numbers if her curve was a bit more gentle, for example taking 4 or 5 hours to go down from 330 to 182 instead of 2.

Kbug

[magicre]

how often is she fed?

would it help her numbers to eat more often?

[twoisplenty]

^^ Thats what I was thinking also. They tell diabetics to have several small meals instead of three normal ones.

[chowder]

I have a (human) son who is type 1 diabetic so I am assuming it behaves similarly in dogs. The first 2 weeks he was home from the hospital after being diagnosed, we had to test him every hour (all night long, too). His numbers were all over the place because when humans are first diagnosed, they are still producing a small amount of insulin and that will cause trouble with finding any set patterns. Also, any exercise will cause the insulin levels to first spike, and then drop, so you have to know exactly when the last amount of exercise occurred and take that into consideration before you give any insulin.

For example, if my son was playing hockey, his blood sugars would actually rise at first while he was playing and if you took his numbers then, it would seem like he needed insulin. But if you waited a little bit, the numbers would start to plummet by themselves and he would need to have snacks. In the beginning we had a lot of emergency episodes where we had to get food into him quickly because he was given too much insulin based on just the number.

Several small meals might work out better at first and be easier to regulate then big meals. At least until you know she has stopped producing any insulin of her own and is becoming set in more of a routine.

Like I said, my experience is from having a child with type 1 diabetes so I'm not 100% sure it crosses over entirely to dogs but the principles should remain the same.

[Kbug]

The difference between human management and dog management is that humans are able to tell when their sugars are too low and correct it and convenience. The dog can't. This is why vets want their sugars on the higher side because if they just run a bit high, there isn't any any danger of getting them too low. Also, people have a two prong insulin management. They have a 2x daily long acting insulin (works over 12 hours) that is designed to manage basal glucose levels. Then, they use a rapid acting insulin (works in 6) to cover meals. In dogs, we try to cover both needs in 1 shot given 2x daily. Also, a large portion of diabetic pet owners do not do home blood glucose testing. Part of the reason for the difference is that the rapid acting insulin hits most dogs like a ton of rocks. For Fayt, a 1/2 unit dose of rapid acting insulin results in the same drop seen in giving her 6 units of the long acting one. And then, throw in the differences due to the fact that we are giving dogs human or pork insulin and not dog insulin.

Smaller meals might work better. I'm going to order my turkey necks today so I can make sure I have them next week with Thanksgiving coming up. I've already determined I'm going to have to stop buying the leg quarters (or not so many) and get whole chickens to cut up. The leg quarters I buy are too big to portion for two of my girls, especially the diabetic, so I'll have to break down the chicken by hand to get better portion sizes. It might even be more economical to get the whole chicken and break it into breasts, backs, and legs myself. Until then, she's going to have to get the bigger portioned meals.

And I have some more pictures to add today. Even a poo pic.

Kbug