PMR and Diabetic dogs

[Kbug]

I've been open to switching my dogs to a raw diet. More importantly, my husband is open to me switching them. I have 4 Labrador retrievers so cost has been a big concern....they eat, and eat, and eat....

However, one of my sweeties was diagnosed diabetic on Labor Day and I'm concerned about feeding her a PMR diet. Has anyone here actually fed a diabetic dog on this type of diet?

From my understanding, the primary concern with a raw, and even BARF, diet is that it often becomes more difficult to maintain even and consistent blood glucose levels. I do home test her blood sugar levels.

Also, please, no cat diabetes references. Diabetes doesn't translate across the species, the end result is essentially the same, but the mechanisms are completely different.

Kbug

[eternalstudent]

First of Hi and welcome to the thread.

I'm glad you are open to switching to raw as I believe it is the best thing we can do for our dogs :-).

As far as cost is concerned I have found PMR to be cheeper than kibble and I know a lot on here have also found this (this obviously does depend what kibble you feed...).

Labs may as you say eat and eat and eat. But they still only need a relatively small amount of food. There are exceptions but as a guideline we use 2 - 3 % of ideal weight. You can pretty much work out how much it is going to cost you from that. There are ways of keeping costs down by bulk buying or using a co-op.

As for the Diabetes problem my dog does not have it but people on here do have diabetic dogs and I am currently helping a friend transition his yorkie to a better diet because of diabetes.

Most kibbles create two additional loads on the pancreas that PMR does not.

1- production of amylase - this is produced to break down long chain carbohydrates found in corn, rice, wheat veg etc.
2- production of insulin - if the carbs are broken down into sugars then the pancreas also tries to sort out the blood sugar with insulin.

In a PMR diet we do not feed carbs this means that both of these loads are reduced - essentially think about type 2 diabetes being controlled by diet.

The reason that there is a belief that the sugar levels are hard to monitor and change in PMR fed dogs is that the sugar that is in the blood stream is produced as a direct result of exercise. This is how dogs get their sugar to power brain, heart and blood. If however, you carry on as you are and home test while reducing the amount of sugars fed you will find you are able to get a fairly good idea of when they need insulin and not (for this look at physically active Type 1 diabetes suffers).

I hope this helps (I know nothing by the way of cats or cat diabetes but all the original research into human diabetes was carried out on dogs and is very well documented).

Others will chime in, and hopefully the personal experiences will help you make a decision.

[Kbug]

Eternalstudent,

Thanks for the quick reply....

However you second point doesn't really hold true. The dog is a Type 1 diabetic, she DOES NOT produce insulin, and never will again produce insulin (and no, not caused by her kibble either). Diet changes will never eliminate her need for insulin injections although it can change the amount of insulin needed. Cats are considered Type II, which is an ineffective use of insulin and you can sometimes manage a cat's diet to eliminate the need for insulin. You also can't compare human and dog reactions to diabetes because:

1. They are managed differently
2. Dogs don't process human insulin the way humans do

All nutrients (carbs, proteins, and fat) wind up in the blood as glucose, the only difference is the body's preference for the nutrient, process involved in the conversion and the length of time it takes to convert the nutrient. Carbs are the body's preferential nutrient to convert to glucose. From the diabetic standpoint it is the dietary variation necessary with these diets that contribute to the regulation difficulties, not the presence of carbs or exercise. The diabetic kibble diet lets you really control the calorie/nutrient intake and once you get your insulin dose regulated you can stay pretty consistent with your blood glucose numbers. I'm not sure where you get that exercise would affect a PMR diet any more than a kibble diet. Exercise is managed around when its best for the individual dog based on the relationship between exercise, insulin and blood glucose. Exercise causes the insulin to work faster, so if the exercise is timed poorly you can cause your dog to become hypoglycemic.

Kbug

[eternalstudent]

Eternalstudent,

Thanks for the quick reply....

However you second point doesn't really hold true. The dog is a Type 1 diabetic, she DOES NOT produce insulin, and never will again produce insulin (and no, not caused by her kibble either). Diet changes will never eliminate her need for insulin injections although it can change the amount of insulin needed. Cats are considered Type II, which is an ineffective use of insulin and you can sometimes manage a cat's diet to eliminate the need for insulin. You also can't compare human and dog reactions to diabetes because:

1. They are managed differently
2. Dogs don't process human insulin the way humans do

All nutrients (carbs, proteins, and fat) wind up in the blood as glucose, the only difference is the body's preference for the nutrient, process involved in the conversion and the length of time it takes to convert the nutrient. Carbs are the body's preferential nutrient to convert to glucose. From the diabetic standpoint it is the dietary variation necessary with these diets that contribute to the regulation difficulties, not the presence of carbs or exercise. The diabetic kibble diet lets you really control the calorie/nutrient intake and once you get your insulin dose regulated you can stay pretty consistent with your blood glucose numbers. I'm not sure where you get that exercise would affect a PMR diet any more than a kibble diet. Exercise is managed around when its best for the individual dog based on the relationship between exercise, insulin and blood glucose. Exercise causes the insulin to work faster, so if the exercise is timed poorly you can cause your dog to become hypoglycemic.

Kbug

Happy to help (if not helpful just say as I am not wanting to rile you on your fist thread :-)) )

Only some proteins and carbs end up as glucose in the blood. Fat is converted to energy within the cells and is a dogs primary source of energy. Only half of amino acids can be converted to glucose and it is these that a dog uses to make the majority of its glucose. If you look at the diet that is fed to working huskies in the arctic circle region it is mainly blubber and it is this that keeps them going for days on end.

Exercise causes the release of glucagon which triggers the braking down of glycogen (made by the release of insulin) to glucose. When a dog exercises this happens and causes a spike in blood sugar in the same way that eating a high carb meal will.

I will freely admit I have not come across a lot of diabetic dogs but most of them have acquired diabetes rather than been borne with it (the one pup I saw with diabetes was such a sorry state it really did brake my heart). It is unfortunate that dogs do not show the same symptoms as humans but they generally do not show until they are completely insulin depleted, and become insulin dependant.

When you feed a high fat high protein meal you still need to give insulin as it has other anabolic functions, not just sugar related however, the amounts will be vastly different.

Any diet that is easy on a pancreas is good for diabetes, as close to a natural diet for you dog I believe will be the best on their internal organs :-).

[Kbug]

Happy to help (if not helpful just say as I am not wanting to rile you on your fist thread :-)) )

I will freely admit I have not come across a lot of diabetic dogs but most of them have acquired diabetes rather than been borne with it (the one pup I saw with diabetes was such a sorry state it really did brake my heart). It is unfortunate that dogs do not show the same symptoms as humans but they generally do not show until they are completely insulin depleted, and become insulin dependant.

When you feed a high fat high protein meal you still need to give insulin as it has other anabolic functions, not just sugar related however, the amounts will be vastly different.

Any diet that is easy on a pancreas is good for diabetes, as close to a natural diet for you dog I believe will be the best on their internal organs :-).

Your not riling me. I've got an animal science degree so I am fairly well educated on nutrition (in theory) and the hormones involved ...and what all the kibble ingredients really are. I'm not necessarily needing to be converted...but with the diabetic dog, I have to look at what is "best" a little more closely within the parameters of the disease. After all, diabetes that isn't well controlled will harm her a lot more and a heck of a lot faster than any kibble will. One of the things that was really annoying trying to research this was the claim that this type of diet will "cure" the diabetes....which it won't.

As far as the dog, according to ultrasounds, her pancreas is just fine otherwise.....its her liver that is enlarged and of concern (as is common in poorly controlled diabetics, so I'm told by her vet) but expected to normalize over time as she becomes better controlled.

Back to the diet....I found the references I couldn't find last night....the standard school of thought is that you want to keep your numbers as even as possible throughout the day and below 250, without going to low and triggering a "rebound" effect from the system trying to auto correct with glucagon. The specific concerns with high protein high fat diets is that the meal will digest too slowly to keep pace with the insulin in some dogs and then kick in when the insulin starts to become less effective. Currently, on her kibble and insulin type, my dog has the strongest reaction in the first 4 - 6 hours (drops the sugars 100 - 150 points) with the effects tapering off and her sugars rising back up after 6 hours. She probably really would need some carb based food stuffs to keep the current insulin dose from being too much and certainly in the case of a hypo event. This in particular is why diabetic kibbles include so much carb and fiber ingredients....to provide a diet that can handle the broadest spectrum of dog reactions to insulin and food. They can be highly variable and very sensitive to even the smallest day to day changes in diet or exercise.

The reason I'm so hesitant to just up and switch her to PMR is because her whole reaction to insulin could change in unexpected ways. A glucose curve done on a PMR diet could be completely unrecognizable from a curve done on a kibble diet from the same dog. I personally have seen some evidence, for my dog specifically, that her reaction to insulin is relative to the dose. Larger doses create a more pronounced drop while the lower doses have shown less pronounced drops. If the theory holds true, and a PMR diet reduces her insulin requirements......

But I still want to hear from people with direct experiences on how a PMR diet works with a diabetic dog, both in the change over and in the long-term.

Kbug

[cprcheetah]

While I don't have a diabetic dog, I have a diabetic husband, who since switching to a grain free/extremely low carb diet has taken his diabetes from the point of needing insulin to just being regulated with 1 metformin pill per day, and the Dr thinks when he loses more weight he will be able to control the diabetes with diet alone. I know if I had a diabetic animal I wouldn't think twice about switching them to a PMR diet, Carbs are extremely bad for diabetics of ANY species. And PMR isn't actually 'high' protein due to the moisture in the diet it's about 20-23% protein.

[xellil]

While I don't have a diabetic dog, I have a diabetic husband, who since switching to a grain free/extremely low carb diet has taken his diabetes from the point of needing insulin to just being regulated with 1 metformin pill per day, and the Dr thinks when he loses more weight he will be able to control the diabetes with diet alone. I know if I had a diabetic animal I wouldn't think twice about switching them to a PMR diet, Carbs are extremely bad for diabetics of ANY species. And PMR isn't actually 'high' protein due to the moisture in the diet it's about 20-23% protein.

I agree - maybe dogs and people do process sugars differently, but they both use insulin to do it. I know two people from my Atkins days who reversed type 2 diabetes by cutting out carbs except for the good carbs like broccoli.

and people didn't get type 2 diabetes until the modern diet. I think it's probably the same with dogs - diets high in corn etc. can't be good for them for that reason alone.

[Kbug]

While I don't have a diabetic dog, I have a diabetic husband, who since switching to a grain free/extremely low carb diet has taken his diabetes from the point of needing insulin to just being regulated with 1 metformin pill per day, and the Dr thinks when he loses more weight he will be able to control the diabetes with diet alone. I know if I had a diabetic animal I wouldn't think twice about switching them to a PMR diet, Carbs are extremely bad for diabetics of ANY species. And PMR isn't actually 'high' protein due to the moisture in the diet it's about 20-23% protein.

Once again, the two don't compare. If your husband is not requiring insulin then he is not a Type 1, he is a Type 2. My dog is a Type 1. Even human and dog type 1's don't compare because the management is much different.

I know of only one person with a diabetic dog that fed raw. She wound up switching to a kibble for the reason I'm concerned with. She got very uneven blood sugar spikes and drops because the insulin didn't match the food. The most common complaint I hear is that the protein kicks in too late for the insulin and high fat contents drive sugars up too much with the end result being the dog goes through a series of sharp up and downs in their blood sugar instead of the more desirable gradual curve. I know several who use a BARF type diet that incorporates complex carbs and they work well enough.

xellil:

No, the problem isn't that the sugars are processed differently, the problem is the insulin itself is processed differently by the body. And corn didn't do this to my dog....a virus did.

I'm REALLY not looking to be preached at about the evilness of corn, nor how a low carb diet affects type 2 humans. First, I can get my dog off corn without using a PMR diet and second, she's a dog, not a type 2 human. Their diabetes management truely IS different and not comparable. I am looking for someone who has successfully moved a diabetic dog to a PMR diet and how it has impacted their regulation.

Kbug

[cprcheetah]

Once again, the two don't compare. If your husband is not requiring insulin then he is not a Type 1, he is a Type 2. My dog is a Type 1. Even human and dog type 1's don't compare because the management is much different.

I know of only one person with a diabetic dog that fed raw. She wound up switching to a kibble for the reason I'm concerned with. She got very uneven blood sugar spikes and drops because the insulin didn't match the food. The most common complaint I hear is that the protein kicks in too late for the insulin and high fat contents drive sugars up too much with the end result being the dog goes through a series of sharp up and downs in their blood sugar instead of the more desirable gradual curve. I know several who use a BARF type diet that incorporates complex carbs and they work well enough.

xellil:

No, the problem isn't that the sugars are processed differently, the problem is the insulin itself is processed differently by the body. And corn didn't do this to my dog....a virus did.

I'm REALLY not looking to be preached at about the evilness of corn, nor how a low carb diet affects type 2 humans. First, I can get my dog off corn without using a PMR diet and second, she's a dog, not a type 2 human. Their diabetes management truely IS different and not comparable. I am looking for someone who has successfully moved a diabetic dog to a PMR diet and how it has impacted their regulation.

Kbug

What virus caused Diabetes? I've worked for a Vet for 20+ years (also my father) and never heard of a virus causing diabetes, am very interested in hearing about it. And YES you actually can control type 1 with diet, we have SEVERAL kitty patients who are on the Royal Canin Diabetic formula who no longer need insulin (while that diet's not ideal it seems to be working). And wasn't preaching was sharing an experience which I thought would be helpful.

Here are some links I found that you might find helpful.
http://www.k9natural.com/component/w...ory/?Itemid=12

http://healthy-food-recipe.com/the-b...diabetic-dogs/

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/Knowle...x?articleid=48

[xellil]

Type 1 and Type 2 are totally different animals. I am talking about Type 2.

I find the virus comment interesting. I work for a company that makes insulin and never heard that.