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i feel like raw is a contradiction

15K views 94 replies 40 participants last post by  DaViking 
#1 ·
see all these threads on killing ducks, or other animals all for the betterment of our animals. I mean where does it become too much? Isn't killing one animal for another kind of defeating the purpose of being an animal lover?
 
#3 ·
I am an animal lover. I am not an animal rights activist. I believe in the most humane treatment possible prior to killing.. but I am not against it. Do you eat meat?
 
#5 ·
Loving animals doesn't mean that you can't kill them. I love rabbits i think they are adorable, but will i break ones neck so that my dog can eat a proper meal? SURE...

I have the utmost respect for any animal that dies for another to live. I went to see cows being slaughtered for human grade food and for offal for my dog, I thought they were beautiful and it made me sad that they had to die, but at the same time there is a food chain. Defeating the purpose of being an animal lover would be killing animals for no reason, or wasting them completely.
 
#6 ·
To truly LOVE anything..you need to accept it. You need to accept its nature and its history. A true animal lover will realize that dogs need meat to survive. It is what they are built to digest. Anyone who calls themselves an animal lover is lying if they can't even accept that some are carnivores. Since the beginning of time animals have been killing other animals for the betterment of their species.
 
#7 ·
It's the circle of life, food chain whatever you want to call it. And as others have said UNLESS you are feeding a Vegetarian kibble guess what? You too are 'killing' animals to feed to others.
 
#8 ·
As everyone else said, its a circle of life, food chain, etc...
 
#9 ·
To be honest, I think those here that are killing ducks or other animals probably take greater care to ensure a quick and pain-free end for the animals they slaugter than that experienced by the animals providing meat for kibble and the grocery stores. To me, part of loving something is about accepting its true nature. Dogs are carnivores, they are meant to eat other animals. Forcing a dog to be a vegetarian (which would be the only option if you aren't feeding other animals) is denying their very nature.
 
#10 ·
I agree with everyone else. Heck I'm even a vegetarian and I feed my dogs raw! I believe in feeding species appropriately. My dogs are carnivores and will be fed as such (no I'm not interested in the slightest about arguing that humans need to eat meat so don't even try or bother please). And as everyone else pointed out, there are animals being killed for your dog's kibble, at least I know the quality and freshness of the quality of meat being fed to my dogs and I know they aren't getting any species-inappropriate ingredients like potatoes, pea protein, fruits, veggies, grains, menadione sodium bisulfite, etc. You come on here with the myriad of problems that Winston has and you're willing to literally try everything under the sun to try to help him except change him to a species appropriate diet that may very well actually solve most if not all of his issues. You say you don't want to give him antibiotics, flea medication, and other unnatural medications and treatments, but you'll feed him over-processed cereal as his only source of nutrition. You say you want to help him and you're willing to try all sorts of other treatments and home remedies, but you absolutely refuse to listen to people who have experienced first hand how raw can benefit the same problems you're dealing with with your own dog. Then you get all defensive about how you have no interest in feeding raw or even looking into it. Then you have the audacity to come onto our section (thank you for posting this in the raw section so I can say all of this actually) and tell us that our way of feeding is somehow cruel or an oxymoron when you are intentionally keeping your dog riddled with medical issues and miserable because you refused to look into an alternative way of feeding that may help him because you're too stubborn to listen to a word we have to say. You sir, are the one who is being a hypocrite, not us.
 
#36 ·
how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.
 
#11 ·
RC, you need to watch some nature shows on TV so you better understand the natural order of things. You cannot feed a carnivore properly without something else dying. The real issue, as others have suggested, is the humane treatment of all animals, even ones used to feed others. There is plenty of cruelty toward all kinds of animals out there, including everything from pets to beef cattle. There is a movement happening though in the agricultural industry to improve "animal husbandry". More farmers and ranchers are becoming aware of it, especially those who produce premium products. Animals raised or slaughtered in stressful conditions usually produce inferior meat. The economics of proper animal rearing is starting to sink in. This is another case for buying pastured and grass fed meat, which usually comes from ranchers who practice humane animal husbandry.

At the end of the day, we're all part of the food chain and you can't feed a dog tofu.
 
#14 ·
RC, you need to watch some nature shows on TV so you better understand the natural order of things.
Yes I was just about to say all those wildlife documentaries showing carnivores taking down herbivores is always a bit sad momentarily but that is nature, that is life and we can't do anything about that anyway. Animals for food are bred for that anyway, ie they wouldn't even exist if we didn't 'grow' them.
I love animals too (they are delicious) and remember us humans are top of the food chain!!!!
 
#18 · (Edited)
No living organism can survive without killing other organisms. I like knowing that the things I kill and eat myself and/or feed to my dog have had a good life--haven't been doused, injected or fed inappropriate amounts of insecticide/fungicide/herbicides, hormones, antibiotics, etc., and have been killed in a humane manner [in the case of animals].
 
#19 ·
Actually, I understand exactly what RC is trying to say. Even to this day, I cannot help but cringe just a little when I read posts about people getting rabbits and chickens and ducks and whatnot and then slaughtering them for their dogs.

Yes, I UNDERSTAND it's the circle of life. Yes, I UNDERSTAND that our dogs are carnivores, they eat meat and the only place you are going to GET meat is from another animal. I understand that and I accept it.

But I also know what RC means.

Personally, I could not do it. Even when I think about fishing, I think I'm going to get a pole, I'm going to get a license, I'm going to go fishing and bring home dinner for the hoodlums and the cats. How perfect would that be?!

But then, I envision me having to kill that fish. I can see it there, lying on the ground, gasping, suffocating, drowning. And holy hell, I don't think I could do it. I just don't have it in me when I can get an animal that is already killed by someone else. Does that make sense to anyone else? I seriously doubt that it does and I don't care if it does. It makes sense to me.

I can block that part out when I go to the store and buy chicken. Could I kill Chicken Little from the park I used to work in back in Miami? HELL! NO! Can I go to the store and buy the already deceased chicken that is wrapped up in a package? Yes. Why? Because I did not have to see that animal look at me, I did not have to see that animal take its last breath, I did not have to see the bloodshed. I CAN remove myself from those thoughts, almost entirely, when I buy the meat already done.

The only possible way for me to be able to kill an animal on purpose and to eat it or feed it to my pets is if shtf and we are starving to death. Then...even then it would be hard for me but if I don't, we starve to death.

But for now, because I don't have to do it, I don't want to do it and I can't do it because I am not in the position where there is no other choice.

It's not that RC doesn't understand where meat comes from or that he's just trying to get a rise out of everyone, it's that he wonders how people who claim to love animals can watch the life blink out of an animal at their hands. THAT is what he was asking. And I don't begrudge anyone who can do that, I don't think less of them, I just know, I can't.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Honestly this is exactly why I think its important for people to become closer to where their food comes from, let alone the food they feed their dogs. You are correct in saying that because you don't have to you wont...but is that the RIGHT way to live? To me, no it isn't. The closer I get to living "farm" life, the more I understand the circle of life, how and why it is so important. Being that we are human and are at the top of that chain, I think we owe it to the animals that supply us food that we experience their lives. Even if it is the final hour. I feel 100,000X more grateful to any animal that we butcher ourselves that he/she gave their life. I can look it in the eye and say thank you, give it a quick and painless death. To me, this is far better than mindlessly going to the grocery store and picking up a package of meat and tossing it in the cart.

Where did that meat come from? How was that animal treated? How was it killed?

It is in fact hard to do. I've done it. I wont lie and say that I wasn't put off a bit by the first few times and couldn't watch...but now I just get it. I understand that this is how the world works. I feel more close to life in general with this experience and knowledge. Once you do it, you'll realize how gratifying it can be.

I knew exactly what RC was asking. How could us dog lovers go out and kill other animals to feed them? That does in fact sound contradictory in the animal lovers sense. BUT I wholeheartedly believe that to butcher other animals for our dogs shows just how much we really do care. We humanely butcher animals that would otherwise be butchered by someone else (either humanely or not) and used for food.
 
#23 ·
For me, its about knowing what is going into my dogs. Dogs are carnivores and I love my dogs enough to feed them as such. I'm going to feed duck. Annie loves it. I would rather take a duck from some guys pond, one that has lived a true ducks life, and give it a quick death. To me, it is far more humane than giving my money to support factory raised animals in cages, piled on eachother.

I'm not in a position to cut out factory raised meat entirely, but I do where I can. It is a lot of work.... those 20 ducks took all day.... but I will do it any time I can. I'm lucky my husband does the slaughtering because admittedly it would be very hard for me. But, that vacuum packed chicken off the shelf probably had a miserable existence, and a miserable death.... all for our convenience.

I do it.... because I love animals.
 
#24 ·
I find it really sad that animals have to die for me, and my dog, and for every other meat eater... but, it is life. I used to never be able to watch animal programmes where animals were being killed... It just upset me too much. I don't have that problem anymore though, I LOVE watching those programmes... Yeah, it is still sad seeing a lion take down a wildebeest, but it is fascinating! The sheer power they have, and the efficient-ness in which they do it... wow! That, to me, is nature at it's best. It will always be sad that an animal had to die, but it's the circle of life. Every animal has its purpose in life, and all fit together perfectly.

I would struggle to kill an animal, but I wish I could so I could raise my own animals for that purpose, and then I know exactly where they are coming from and give them the best life... but, I know I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I think people really need to start to learn to get closer to their food. I was cutting up chickens for Jake tonight (something I started off really struggling to do) and I called my nephew (who is 7) through to watch me. I told him all about the chickens, and showed him everything... he was utterly disgusted and refused to touch it, but I told him that he needs to learn to be closer to his food... and not be so squeamish! It is too easy to get others to do the killing for us, I guess for some, that can take some of the guilt of the death off our hands... When someone else is doing the deed!

When I have kids, they will be hands on with food as soon as I can get them to be, and right from the start they will see my preparing Jake's food. I hope they don't become the way I am now... I feel like a right coward sometimes (I'm not calling others cowards, that's just what I think for me).

Anyway, the point is... what do you expect us to feed our dogs? They are carnivores, they need meat...
 
#25 ·
I have zero desire to learn about killing an animal and will not do so unless I have to. Like I said in my post, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone else, it's my opinion, I'm not wrong for having it, it makes sense to me and I'm not going to snap Thumper's neck to feed my dog unless I have NO other choice. Plain and simple.
 
#27 ·
I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.
 
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#34 ·
I kinda see both sides of it, personally I could never slaughter animals for food (I cant even fish without feeling guilty) because I get emotionally attached to all of them(is my pets life worth more then cows or chickens?) , regardless of the species (heck, I even do catch and release with bugs that end up in the house). But obviously I'm being a hypocrite if I turn a blind eye by buying prepackaged meats and fooling myself into thinking that it didnt come from the same animal that I would not kill myself. Ideally I'd like to buy from local farmers, but I cant even afford to buy organic for myself half the time, so as much as I'd like to support humane approach to raising feed animals, its little out of reach at this point. Quite frankly the slaughtering topics are quite off-putting, so I dont read them anymore, some people seem way to excited about butchering and laugh about really gory details which I just cant agree with. But again, this is just a difference of opinion, nothing less nothing more.
 
#35 ·
This is pretty much how I feel.

I don't necessarily WANT animals to die, but I do want to do what's best for my dogs and cats. I also understand that it's a natural part of life for some animals to die so that others can survive. Yet, I cannot kill...I feel guilty killing most bugs. I do feel *far* worse for the animals whose meat I purchase from the wholesaler than I do for the animals whose scraps my hunting friends are kind enough to gift me with. At least those animals lived free and naturally and hopefully had a quick death as opposed to an entire life spent penned up and suffering. If I could afford all free range local stuff, I would go that route in a heartbeat....but I can't. And since I can't bring myself to kill, it's unfortunately going to be mostly factory farmed meat for my crew at this point in time. I understand why people raise or purchase and kill their own animals, and if I had it in me to do the deed, I probably would too. It still bothers me to read those posts, so like Unosmom I just try to stay away from them, but I don't feel that raw feeding is a contradiction.
 
#42 ·
What a fantastic post! I think we could all go on for days about how raw has benefited our dogs, but we already have at some point on this forum. All one needs to do is read the posts from the past to see that. If one does not wish to educate oneself, then why does one come to a public forum to pick fights?
 
#95 · (Edited)
If one does not wish to educate oneself, then why does one come to a public forum to pick fights?
Because "one" pick fights with PMR'ers and kibble feeders alike... No rhyme or logic.
 
#43 ·
No. It doesn't. If animals didn't get eaten by other animals, the world would be overrun and everything would die. You can see this in the simple food chain of grass, rabbits, and coyotes in Southern California. You have lush, green, plentiful grass. This results in more rabbits. The rise in the numbers of rabbits results in the rise in the number of coyotes. The rabbits' numbers then dwindle due to both eating all of the grass (more rabbits than the habitat can handle) and being eaten by the plentiful coyotes. The rabbits then become scarce. As a result, coyote numbers go down because there is not enough food for them. Now, because there are not a huge amount of rabbits, the grass has a chance to recover, which results in more rabbits, then more coyotes and the cycle starts all over. Everything keeps everything else in balance.

I love animals. I don't particularly love primates or bugs, but just about everything else is adored by me. I LOVE cows with their big doe eyes and their rough tongues, but I also understand that they are part of the food chain. I love antelope. I think they are some of the most magnificent animals on the planet. I prefer them over lions and other predators, but their deaths are necessary for the survival of the predators.

I also agree with those like Natalie who say that by raising our own animals for food, we can ensure that, prior to slaughter, they actually get to live as the animals they are. We have a friend who raises his own sheep, pigs, chickens, and cattle. Those animals are played with by the kids, watched over by their Great Pyrenees, Zeus and Iris, and have the dream life (for a barn animal). They are sweet and friendly and aren't stressed out at all. They get to graze and just be pigs or sheep or whatever. When the time comes for slaughter, it is done as quick and painless as possible. The animals bought in supermarkets? They are pumped full of inappropriate foods, forced to live in a small space usually with their own waste, and live unnaturally short lives due to their accelerated growth. How anyone can justify supporting that while calling raising your own meat cruel is just nutty in my book.

I'm vegan and an animal rights activist so I could not even fathom killing an animal - or fathom people who hunt, kill their own, etc. It goes against my moral grain.
I feed raw for my dogs health but every time I feed her, it's torture for me.
Not all of us are vegan. Most of us are not, I think. I could be wrong as I don't know everyone here personally, but what I don't understand is where do animal rights activists draw the line? Why is it ok for a lion, painted dog or hyena to kill and eat Thomson's gazelle, but it is wrong for me to kill and eat (or feed to the dogs) a mule deer? We are omnivores which means we eat meat. Because we are omnivores, that means we (as well as our carnivorous canines) have been given the tools by nature to chew, digest, and find nutrition in meat.

Another question: If you are an animal rights activist, how does feeding your dog meat (his right as a carnivore) go against your moral grain? Please keep in mind that I don't have anything against vegans or vegetarians. It is just a mindset I have never understood and, as Natalie says, what would this world be if were all exactly the same? :)


Sorry, re, didn't see this earlier.

This is the difference, I think. When I see a herd of cattle or a few chickens pecking around in a yard or even a pig rolling in mud, I do not think, "There's breakfast, lunch and dinner". I actually think about the animal and wonder what kind of character it has. I've gotten to know so many animals...so. many. types. And every fricken last one I've met, pet or not, ends up having some kind of character that makes it hard for me to imagine anyone eating it.

Ducks, gators, chickens, snakes....where I used to work...I got to know them. They all have distinct characters, (I refrain from saying, 'personality' lest someone think I am humanizing these animals...I am not!), and some of them are downright sociable. The one mallard who used to fly in to the park every day would come running when he saw us, to be around us. Chicken Little...jeez, I never knew chickens were that damn funny until I met this chicken. I sometimes wonder if this chicken knows he's a chicken. Even the gators who are not cuddly and cute and you can't pick them up and squeeze them, I can't. It helps that I don't like the taste, (yes, I tasted a nugget so I could honestly answer how they taste and it is NOT LIKE chicken at all!), but I still couldn't do it. When you spend almost your entire day around them, it's hard to imagine taking their life to eat them.

When I pass by a field with cows...hell yes I have guilt. I love cow. I love their meat and I love their milk. The milk I do not feel bad about drinking but the meat...yes I do think about it when I'm buying it and making it. It IS easier when I was not the one who had to kill it. I don't care if someone thinks I'm a hypocrite for that, (I've been called that in the past, several times, I don't care, think what you want), and I'm not going to get in to a debate about what humans need as far as food.

Heck, one time, when I lived in Seattle and was doing courier work, I got behind a truck with chickens in cages on it, on I-5 coming back in to Seattle. It was cold outside. The chickens were cramped in those little cages, just stuffed in there. I hated that. I felt horrible for those birds. I wanted to puke. I could not eat chicken for over a year because of it. I know where they were going. I didn't want to be the one that ate them.

I have tried to be a vegetarian before...I just can't stand it. Maybe they have improved over the years, I don't know but I don't like most veggies, I am not in to beans and tofu? No. Just no.

It's not like I walk in to the store and blindly grab not having a second thought about it, I sure do. However, I didn't have to see it, as I said in my previous post, I didn't have to look it in the eye and see it looking back at me...no, I'm not going to do it. As it is, I don't eat a whole lot of meat anyway. Every fricken time I do buy meat thinking it's for me, 99% of the time it goes to the pets in the end. Some of that is money, some of that is my laziness and some of that is the guilt.

No one is wrong. If you can look at an animal and see your next steak dinner, that's how you see them. And some of us see an animal and see that animal as a creature that is living and breathing and can't find it in ourselves to steal that away from that animal by our own hands.

(But Serenity, you are doing that when you buy meat!) I know. Read what I just said, above.

I guess to make a comparison: In China, they eat dogs. I have seen the photos of those dogs, on their way to slaughter. Just like the chickens, those dogs are stuffed in to cages for transport. How some here might feel about that, feel about taking one of those dogs, killing it and feeding it to their own pets...maybe you can start to understand what I mean about other meat.
Serenity, I can't help but feel that you are making this about you. No one here is looking down on you for feeling the way you do. We are all different and there are many different views. There is nothing wrong with that. You are one of those who simply does not like the idea of killing an animal yourself. THAT'S OK!!! :) We don't mind. I hate seeing those chicken cages too. It's awful! That is why I hope to one day be able to rear my own chickens so they can scratch around in the dirt looking for bugs and run around flapping their wings and live life like a real chicken SHOULD be able to. Yes, they will end up being killed for meat, but because I was the one doing it, I will know that they lived as stress free of a life as I can possibly provide. Same for any other animals I raise.

You don't have to justify why you feel the way you do. Some people just don't have what it takes to be able to raise and kill their own animals. Heck! I'm not even sure I do! But one day, I will find out. If I don't, oh well. If I do, GREAT! In order to make society successful, we have to have all types of people.

how would a raw diet help winstons allergys when i dont even know what he is allergic too? chicken is chicken.
Go check out some of the threads. You have been here long enough to have been able to read most of them but hey, maybe you missed them. Cooked chicken can have a tremendously different effect on a dog than raw chicken. It is not uncommon for dogs to be allergic to meats in their cooked form. A lot of things in dog foods cause allergies. Potatoes, grains, etc. They are not actually meant to eat those things. They are designed to eat meat and that is why dogs do better on a raw diet. Even if you are skeptical about a raw diet, there is no reason you couldn't try it out for a few months and, if Winston gets no better, then you can go back to kibble. All of us here are convinced raw feeders, but there is no law that says switching to raw HAS to be permanent. For us, it is permanent because we have seen how much better our dogs are on raw vs kibble. No one can make you keep feeding raw if it doesn't work out for Winston.
 
#87 ·
Serenity, I can't help but feel that you are making this about you. No one here is looking down on you for feeling the way you do. We are all different and there are many different views. There is nothing wrong with that. You are one of those who simply does not like the idea of killing an animal yourself. THAT'S OK!!! :) We don't mind. I hate seeing those chicken cages too. It's awful! That is why I hope to one day be able to rear my own chickens so they can scratch around in the dirt looking for bugs and run around flapping their wings and live life like a real chicken SHOULD be able to. Yes, they will end up being killed for meat, but because I was the one doing it, I will know that they lived as stress free of a life as I can possibly provide. Same for any other animals I raise.
Nope, wasn't making it all about me. I wrote that before I saw his other thread in the canned dog food section. At the time of writing my posts, I stupidly thought he was asking a legitimate question. And I saw people calling him out for asking the question. Thought people weren't understanding that some of us are not capable of doing this.

But, after seeing his other thread, made AFTER this one, I realized that those who were calling him out were right, as I said in that other thread to him. Which pissed me off because I was trying to defend the supposed legitimate question when in reality, he was just being a *****.

To say I'm peeved about that is an understatement.
 
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