Best food for...

[DogLuver]

I've decided to start this thread instead of continuing on the other threads, and going off topic.

As per some discussions with MythBuster and The Expert, there are some contradicting theories here, and apparently it all depends on the dog when deciding which diet is best for THAT dog. So here's my dogs, what do you think I should be feeding them? All opinions advice from anyone welcome :)

Dog#1: Trooper
BREED: Golden Retriever
GENDER: Male
AGE: 4.5yrs
WEIGHT: 85lbs, tall and lean
ACTIVITY: always going, very active dog. Loves to run/retriever and can go on and on and on, endless energy. When in the house, sleeping, but gets plenty of exercise outside during play, and daily 1hr walks.
MY BELIEFS/EXPERIENCE: Trooper is very active, and if fed a kibble with low kcal/cup he loses weight fast
HISTORY: Used to be a picky eater when he was free fed. When put on a eating schedule, started eating full amount that was presented to him. He won't eat foods such as Purina, or Iams, also tried some generic brands, all grain inclusive that he wasn't crazy about. He went nuts over Acana, EVO, and Orijen, so have stuck with those.
DIET/HEALTH HISTORY: First 1.5yrs was fed MainStay (similar to Ol'Roy, bought at grocery store), had re-occurring bladder infections, bad ones, with crystals and lots of blood in urine. Switched to a Generic Performance kibble (http://www.brtpetfoods.com/dogs_profile.htm), but on this food he still had the bladder infections, and had itchy feet, always licking, and excessive eye boogers. At about 3yrs old, switched him to EVO Turkey & Chicken Formula, and he began to gain weight finally (he was 70-75lbs before this, and just too skinny). Started rotating between EVO, Acana and Orijen, found that he liked Acana best, and held a steady weight without the bladder infections/itchy feet. No problems now so have been feeding Acana since.
CURRENT DIET: Rotation of Acana Ranchlands, Acana Grasslands, Acana Pacifica, Orijen 6-Fish
RESULTS ON THIS DIET: Good, no problems (bladder infections gone, itchy feet gone, eye boogers minimized, but still there sometimes) high energy as always, SUPER DUPER shiny coat...I've never seen his coat so beautiful in his 4.5yrs. All around seems good, eats well, and has small, solid regular stools.

Dog#2: Gus
BREED: Great Dane
GENDER: Male
AGE: 7mths
WEIGHT: 100lbs tall and lean
ACTIVITY: 1hr walk daily, regular romps/playing outside with Trooper, very relaxed/lazy when inside does a lot of sleeping.
MY BELIEFS/EXPERIENCE: I did a RIDICULOUS amount of research on Great Danes/Giant Breed dogs prior to getting Gus, and chose his food according to what I learned in regards to bone growth, bloat, and so forth.
DIET/HEALTH HISTORY: The breeder had him on Royal Canin puppy, and she gave me a small bag of it, I continued feeding it, and Gus had bad diarhea for the 2 weeks that he continued that. The diarhea could have been from the change (leaving his family and such). But after the research I did, I decided I didn't like Royal Canin, so I switched him to Innova Large Breed Puppy (gradually switched him), and his diarhea got worse, and didn't improve after a 30lb bag, so I then gradually switched him to Orijen LBP, diarhea went away immediately, he was able to keep a steady weight/growth with Orijen LBP so I have been feeding him that since (for about 3.5mths now)
CURRENT DIET: Orijen LBP, occasionally Orijen 6-Fish and Acana Pacifica
RESULTS ON THIS DIET: Good, no problems, very shiny coat, plenty of energy, growing steadily, no odor, no eye boogers, loves his food. Has regular, solid stools (but they're still fairly large, I don't know if they get small for a Great Dane though??)

so based on this information, or any other information (just ask) what would you recommend I feed Trooper and Gus? And why? I personally believe ultimately I should be feeding them a properly balanced RAW diet...and I'm working towards that, but if someone wants to tell me that a RAW diet is not ideal for them, I'm open ears, but please to do explain :) Thank you all in advance.

[whiteleo]

Can't comment on the raw option here as it's the dry/canned section! But if the dogs are doing great on their current diets then i would stick with it. BTW I love Acana products, have used them on my fosters and if I didn't feed raw I would feed this kibble.

[Mondo]

Acana and Orijen are both excellent kibbles, and I fed them in my pre-raw days .. back in November 2011. lol.

[MollyWoppy]

I'm thinking along Robins lines, if you think your dogs are doing wonderfully on their various diets, why change? I think the foods you have chosen are both great foods, made by trustworthy companies. You are rotating between the different proteins, which I personally like to do as well. Mollie was on the various proteins of Orijen (we don't get Acana here) before we made the move to raw, and I was very happy with her condition. My cat is on Orijen, I did a lot of research before persuading her to eat this food, but I'm very happy with the results so far. My friends 14 year old pug is on mostly Orijen (and premade raw), he was on Science Diet, but his health, coat and general demeanor are like night and day compared to a year ago.
Seriously, from what you have written, what you are currently feeding seems to be a good thing.

[mythbuster]

so based on this information, or any other information (just ask) what would you recommend I feed Trooper and Gus? And why? I personally believe ultimately I should be feeding them a properly balanced RAW diet...and I'm working towards that, but if someone wants to tell me that a RAW diet is not ideal for them, I'm open ears, but please to do explain :) Thank you all in advance.

Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?

There is something to be said for the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' rule of thumb, however, there is also a difference between adequate nutrition and optimal nutrition, and it can be difficult to know the difference between the two.

To take a step back, when I'm choosing a diet for a patient, first I make a list of companies that I feel produce optimal nutrition.
To start, I ask the following questions:
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

I have asked these questions of a lot of companies. Most companies don't bother answering at all, a couple have answered one or two of the questions and left the rest blank. Champion (who makes Acana) did not answer me.
Once I have a list of companies I trust, I look at what the animal needs, and look at the products available from my 'trusted companies', to see what produce best meets the needs of the animal.

Trooper
-young active dog
-history of urinary issues (this is a bit of a question mark for me... Male dogs very rarely get bladder infections, so I'm curious about how he got a UTI, what crystals he formed, the concentration of his urine at the time, and what his urine looks like when he's healthy)
-history of itchy skin; is this a food allergy, environmental allergy, or due to the fact that golden's are a breed that is predisposed to hot spots and skin issues?
-breed predispositions; joint disease, skin issues, cancer

Nutritional wish list:
-moderate protein/fat levels to meet needs of a high energy/activity dog
-skin support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, sulfur amino acids (these are abundant in corn... as an aside...), omega-6s like LA and GLA to strengthen the strength of the skin barrier
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage

Gus
-growing giant breed dog
-breed/size predisposition to diarrhea, GDV, joint disease, dilated cardiomyopathy, cancer

Nutritional wish list:
-diet produced to meet the growth requirements of a giant breed dog
-GI support; highly digestible to decrease fermentation which can lead to diarrhea, and easily broken down to help decrease risk of bloat
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-heart support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, L-carnitine to ensure adequate supply and decrease risk of DCM, antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage.
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage

Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be:

Trooper: Golden Retriever 25 / Breed / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Maxi Joint and Coat Care 28 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin (this is actually what I feed my dog and he does amazingly well on it)
Maxi Adult 25 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Gus: Giant Junior / Giant / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin

[PDXdogmom]

DogLuver:

You rotate foods for both dogs. You list the results for both dogs as "good, no problems".

I think you have your answer: stay with what you're doing.

[DogLuver]

Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?

Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be:

Trooper: Golden Retriever 25 / Breed / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Maxi Joint and Coat Care 28 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin (this is actually what I feed my dog and he does amazingly well on it)
Maxi Adult 25 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Gus: Giant Junior / Giant / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin

I've read your entire answer, thank you for your advice and reasoning, I appreciate it. I am not doubting your knowledge or education, or even your reasoning, but with my experience/knowledge/advice/understanding, I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding either dogs a food with such little meat content.

To answer your question, what convinces me that RAW is the way to go. I've been convinced by my current vet, by my current dog trainer, by friends/family that feed their dogs a RAW diet with much success, from several educated and experienced people, from people who have sled huskies and feed RAW and people who have working farm dogs, from several people on this forum, and other forums, from success stories I've heard/read, and based on my belief of trying to do things naturally, and create natural health.

If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs? I've done a ton of research online about how to properly balance a RAW diet, I believe I have a good understanding of it, but I am also going to continue trying to learn more before I do decide to make the switch or not. I've consulted with my vet about a properly balanced RAW diet, and he too has experience with feeding his own dogs a RAW diet, he also treats dogs that are fed various diets, and he believes in feeding a RAW diet, which is a great piece of mind for me. How am I going to know if it's meeting all the nutritional requirements of my dogs, again, based on others advice/experience and by trying it with my dogs. If I realized that this diet was not working for them I would change it of coarse.

In all honesty....I DON'T know forsure that feeding a RAW diet meets all the nutritional requirements for my dogs, but I also DON'T know that any commercial diet, or home-made diet would meet those nutritional requirements either. I am doing my very best to provide them the very best I can, and I have good reason, after learning, confiding in professionals, and seeing the results of other people who feed their dogs RAW, seeing the improvements, and learning from previous peoples mistakes/experiences to believe that a RAW diet is ideal for my dogs.

I don't know much about Royal Canin, and I appreciate your in depth explanation. I'm not completely writing you off and saying "you don't know what you're talking about, I'm doing it my way", I do believe you know what you're talking about and I am trying to learn from you (I am open to hearing everyones opinions/advice, and from there making my own decision)...but as for now, I'll just say thank you for your advice :) and leave it there.

PS...sorry for so much RAW talk in the dry/kibble section, just trying to answer the question.

[mythbuster]

I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding either dogs a food with such little meat content.

I'm not trying to sway you, but I do feel the need to correct a misperception...... There is a huge difference between meat content and protein content. AAFCO minimum protein requirement for adult dogs is 18%. The lowest of the diets I listed has a protein level minimum of 25%. Protein is necessary for certain metabolic functions (enzymes etc...), maintaining muscle mass, producing skin and hair, and is used for energy. Excess protein is turned into fat or is wasted. There is no benefit to feeding an animal more protein than it requires. In fact, certain disease conditions (ie: renal disease) progress more quickly in the face of excess protein. Meat is 80-90% water, depending on the meat you're looking at, so if you have a pound of meat, you actually only have a couple of ounces of nutrients left after water is removed.

[whiteleo]

You know, I'm just tried of the same old crap! I really find it hard to believe that you are not from a "dog food co." Raw is taking over and the kibble co. are getting worried so they must send out their people to put scare tactics on the forums.....Enough is enough!

Try raw the right way and you too will be convinced!

[The Expert]

Ok so myth buster basically said what I would have said.
I really feel that anyone wanting to use ANY diet should use those questions!!! Even for a pre-made RAW diet. You cannot assume that because a company says it is “good and wholesome” it is. If they do not answer your questions then you basically know they are lying to you on their packaging. Back to that pretty packaging thing and their scare tactics and playing off of people’s emotions. They know people want to feed the best and they find ways to make them believe this is the best. To be honest I wouldn’t feed a company that ever said “we do not add ……”, for the very reason of they never give scientific proof as to why it isn’t added. Many times they just state because of this, with nothing to back up the claim. Anyone can claim something, but truly only science can back up the claim. I know some people seem to be against research, and say they see differences, which is fine. But science truly is the only way we can conclusively determine something, as it does control many variables to ensure the result was due to whatever they were studying not by chance. No trial will ever give you all the answers, that isn’t biology. But a trial can definitely open more tunnels for research.
From the companies listed I would never use them for the reason that I know they do not formulate properly. I have heard, and seen firsthand many bad cases with these supposed holistic diets. Based on how diets are made and the ingredients they add, I know the pet is not getting everything, and every bag varies greatly. These companies prey on the un-educated consumer, which is not right, but is fact. This trend occurs not only in pet food but people health as well. However, as we see every dog is different.
Just because their coat looks great does not mean it is great. It can still be brittle and fall out a lot, the skin can too oily, or not produce enough. Many of these companies state they have omegas which will make the skin and coat nice. But nutrition is never just one ingredient, often it is over 20 different nutrients for just one area.
Troopers urinary issues are very interesting, I would keep an eye on that. If they were calcium oxalate stones I would avoid a potato based diet as research is showing an increase in calcium oxalate stones and the common denominator is a potato diet. As for Gus I would really recommend a large or giant breed puppy food (Giant breed is even better). Giants have a remarkable growth period, and research has been showing that dogs of this size if not fed properly actually are suffering from osteo-arthritis at very young ages. During the first 8 months these dogs have grown about 8X their initial body weight. This is HUGE, meaning they do require a diet precisely formulated to their needs. I cant think of any other animal that in that short of times increases its body weight by that much! (not much like I wolf I think).
One thing I am seeing and am more concerned about is what appears to be the lack of fibre in the RAW diet. You actually need fibre in order to ensure healthy transit and proper friction in the gastro intestinal tract. You actually need this in order to ensure the cells are rejuvenating properly, without this cancer can be an issue. You may not see it in larger dogs as they do not live long enough, but more small dogs. To me like I have said before you really want to feed a prey model diet, you should feed a carcass – skin, hair organs, and all. This is the MOST accurate. If you have ever seen wolf scat, it has hair and grass in it. For this exact reason, I just feel if you wanted to fed RAW this is what should be done.
My next thing is based on digestibility. If you are only feeding protein and fat, no carb (which includes fibre). You should have nothing come out the other end. Anything that comes out was not digested. Also the bigger the chunks swallowed the less digestible it is as the stomach has to work very hard to break it up and in most cases will not. If things are eaten in smaller sizes (so kibble with the ground food) this actually increases digestive efficiency. As well believe it or not, cooking actually makes all food more digestible. That is a reason people started cooking foods, decreased digestive upsets (as well as parasites). I know many people want smaller poop, however, there can be too small of a poop and this can be a whole other issue. I just recently rescued a springer who was fed pedigree and I have NEVER seen poop that big come out of a dog that small (kinda scary). He now has a poop that is appropriate for that size. So yes feeding a diet that is not formulated right nor digested well will lead to bigger messes, but like I said too small is an issue too.

Personally I am against rotation, if you would like to know why just ask  I thought the post was long enough haha

I think I have hit every point, but really for any diet you buy ask the company those questions, I have a feeling some of the companies (pre-made raw or kibble) will shock you either with lack of response or that you deemed them bad based of false facts and they actually do write you back.