Regarding the Alpha Debate

[jiml]

Watch Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. She is 10 times the trainer CM is.>>>>

I dont know if i totally agree. I am not as they say "purely positive" but I do think CM is sometimes outdated and many times just ignorant either in technique or explanation. That said VS is good w common everyday house dog probs. For the big probs sometimes i feel she bails. Ex dog begs - feed him tastier stuff and put up a baby gate LOL. I need to be on tv for that LOL.

[jiml]

Even among trainers that do use aversives some of CM's techs are a no-no. Like alpha rolls.

I DO believe that every dog is different. Ex for one (maybe even most)dog/s a pinch collar may be what i would call abusive. For another less so than a flat or head collar.

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some is semantics. EX from the article - " "All I have to be is one position higher than that dog," says Beaver. "I raise him to see me as a leader. Not an alpha, a leader.""

well most would use the terms interchangeably.

I despise CM's usage of the word dominance in practically every situation. but if you practice NILF you are controlling resources - the very definition of dominance.

[RawFedDogs]

I DO believe that every dog is different. Ex for one (maybe even most)dog/s a pinch collar may be what i would call abusive. For another less so than a flat or head collar.

Once you advance to purely positive training and you have to be VERY knowledgable about dog psycology, you will understand that every dog operates under the same psycological priciples. They may not be alike but the same principles of learning and behavior apply to each.

some is semantics. EX from the article - " "All I have to be is one position higher than that dog," says Beaver. "I raise him to see me as a leader. Not an alpha, a leader.""

well most would use the terms interchangeably.

I see them as different things. An alpha is a controller who usually uses coersion, force or the thread of force in most everything in order to get what he wants.

A leader is a teacher, guide, and mentor.

I think it is more a difference in attitude. In my dog training days, I would find that I would get different behaviors out of my clients when I used the word "alpha" vs. "leader or teacher"

I despise CM's usage of the word dominance in practically every situation. but if you practice NILF you are controlling resources - the very definition of dominance.

By the very strictest definition of the word you are correct. However, NILIF almost never uses adversives. It usually just witholds rewards until a behavior is performed. Dominance almost always uses adversives in the common usage of the word.

[jiml]

Once you advance to purely positive training >>>> LOL - I know your beliefs and will not take offence LOL

As we all know there is really no PP. just limiting of aversion to levels acceptable to the individual.

[merlin371]

Interesting read from K9-1 regarding the alpha debate this are guys that actually have trained wolfs as well.

This part is quite interesting

What they are referring to is the original study where wolves were observed in captivity. Here unrelated wolves were placed together and an “alpha” emerged as the most assertive wolf that would be in control of limited resources and ultimately social interaction.
They are now attempting to debunk this theory because of further studies out in the wild typically will be made up of related wolves, and naturally there is less aggression seen in these established packs where the pups are born to parents that already have the upper hand. Wolves, like normally acting dogs, do not show aggression for no reason. And, if they must it is always minimal amount.
Now, let me ask you this… How many dog owners have actually giving birth to their family dog? Compare this to the number of families that are actually bringing outsiders (pups or rescued adults) into their home and are unrelated. Ok, that will be 100%. A dog, just like a wolf, will need to know who has the dominant role in the household in order to relate properly to the humans and know who makes the important group decisions – whether it be who to trust at the door or who is entitled to take possession of the unclaimed poisoned rat discovered in the yard at the same time. If no one shows this to the dog, depending on the dog’s personality, he may either claim the role himself, or just be insecure and wait for someone else to take the role. This is what dominance is about in our relationship with dogs – and if you don’t communicate that you want the role, yes, a dog may “dominate” us if it fits his personality type. To “dominate” is to be in control and this does happen all the time in households with no knowledge of how to “dominate” their pets. Does dominating a dog have anything to do with force as suggested… only to the uneducated “old school” trainer and those who credit them as representing professional dog training. Dominating your relationship with your dog has to do with who is making the initiatives, who is in control of unclaimed possessions, play, and other activities. This is what gives you the upper hand needed in the dog-human relationship and tools to motivate your dog for further training. It involves calm leadership with precise relationship rules. It is not about “alpha rolls” or physical punishment of any kind.

rest of the article is here

“Dominance in Dog Training Debunked” or is it?

[RawFedDogs]

I don't have time right now to read the link, what is quoted here is very good. I agree completely. I don't even like to use the word "dominate" even if it's put in quotes showing that is not really domination in the way we picture. I prefer the words "teach", "guide", "lead", and "mentor" to describe my relationship with my dogs and thats the concept I tried to teach my clients back in my training days.