Regarding the Alpha Debate

[DaneMama]

Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.

But my point is WHY kick a dog? Why not first teach a dog a cue word or distract the dog with a treat or a funny noise? Why resort to violence that just compromises the dog's trust for you? I just don't see the logic in provoking a dog, let alone a dog that is supposedly aggressive.

As for the second video...have you ever tried grooming one of those brush-loving pooches? I have and it's definitely not fun. I've held them back too to avoid getting bit.

Absolutely. That is a difficult thing. But that is what a muzzle is for. And telling the owners to start desensitizing their dog to brushes and being groomed.

The third video you do have a point.

Just my two cents.

Adding your 0.02 in gives a different opinion and gets people to think

[Jacksons Mom]

Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.

I was going to say the same thing about the first video with the Husky dog. However, I don't agree with the way he went about that situation. I've seen this video multiple times and this is the only one that ALWAYS pops up in CM debate threads.

Also, the grooming dog, to be perfectly honest, I didn't think he did anything wrong. I think the dog acting out the way he did made it look alot worse. Jackson, for example, HATES his nail being clipped. I've tried desensitizing him to it multiple times (we use clicker training and positive reinforcement) but he doesn't care. He just hates it. He's gotten *better* and of course I will continue the positive reinforcement to get him to be better with his nails. But his groomer has to hold him down (not as drastic as this dog) to cut his nails real quick. I've watched her, she's not harming him, she's just getting her job done and it's over within 60 seconds. My friends little Yorkie looks somewhat similar to the dog in the clip and has to have two people hold him down, while one cuts the nails, and it's over fast and the dog gets over it.

The third one with the remote collar is pretty bad. I just don't like shock collars at all, and I don't agree with them. I've probably seen every episode of DW (and It's Me or the Dog actually) and I've probably only seen him actually use a shock collar around 3-4 times in the past 6 seasons. One was for a dog that chased cars and had been hit multiple times, they lived on a farm. One was for a Boxer that jumped and cleared and 8 foot fence easily and he used a static mat to keep him away from the fence. This GSD in the clip. And I know there was probably one or two more but that's all I remember. It's not like he's going around shocking dogs in every episode, which alot of CM haters make it seem like.

I think the first two seasons were probably the worst in terms of bad training. He did way too many unnecessary things and spouted the dominance thing way too often. I personally feel he's chilled out a lot and his recent episodes have been pretty much all positive. He uses treats and positive reinforcers more than ever before. He also doesn't just worry about dominating every dog. If there's a real shy dog, he uses slow, calm and positive methods. Like I said, I think he's come a long way and I'm happy about that.

He came from an entirely different culture when it comes to dogs specifically. He did not know any better and he used what worked for him. I believe he had just learned English a year before his show started up. Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith were the ones who paid for his English tutor and got him involved with celebrities, so I think that's the only reason he ended up getting his own show. And Daddy had once belonged to rapper Red Man or something. So of course it's been a learning process for him, just like it has for anyone else who grew up with dogs who had been trained using these methods. I commend him for trying new things and being willing to learn from his mistakes.

Do I believe in everything he does? No. I don't dominate Jackson, or believe in shock collars, or any of that. But I envy his calm energy and state of mind and do believe dogs benefit from that, as well as exercise, discipline and affection.

[Jacksons Mom]

But my point is WHY kick a dog? Why not first teach a dog a cue word or distract the dog with a treat or a funny noise? Why resort to violence that just compromises the dog's trust for you? I just don't see the logic in provoking a dog, let alone a dog that is supposedly aggressive.

He's not really what I'd call 'kicking' the dog, but I agree other methods should have been used. His point in using his foot to give the dog a nudge in the side is to re-direct his attention, but I agree that something else should have been tried first. More often than not though, a dog in that state of mind won't care about a toy or a funny noise. I know my dads JRT could care less when she goes on her little barking freaking out pulling on leash tangents. You could have the yummiest steak in the world and she could care less. Even a 'kick' to her side probably wouldn't do the trick for her, lol.

Absolutely. That is a difficult thing. But that is what a muzzle is for. And telling the owners to start desensitizing their dog to brushes and being groomed.

He has done this quite a few times actually. I remember one episode and it was another tiny dog, I don't remember what kind, who hated the brush. So he slowly desensitized the dog to it, putting treats on it, and just waving it in front of the dogs face, etc. Also, I believe in the full episode of the little white spazz dog you posted, he also did that. I don't remember if treats were involved in that one though but he did make the cutting noise of the shears before actually cutting, etc, and getting the dog used to it.

[DaneMama]

We will just agree to disagree about Cesar

[chowder]

I have raised Chows and Lhasa's for over 30 years so basically have had nothing but dominant and problem dogs I started out watching every episode of Cesar and in the beginning thought that he might have some potential. But after seeing almost all of his shows, I realized there was no way his 'training' methods would work on Chows, and most independent breeds.

Cesar's problem in the hour long show is that he doesn't spend any time learning the dogs personality. A true problem dog needs to have a significant amount of time spent with it. You can't walk up to the dog, snap your fingers, and establish a bond with it in twenty minutes and then demand things of it. All that trainer is going to do is establish a great amount of distrust in the dog. The dog may actually obey the trainer after twenty minutes of harrassment, but it will be with total beligerance and it won't last. I know the show is edited but he still does not spend anywhere near the amount of time with the dogs that is needed to establish a relationship with them.

As far as the Husky video goes, it doesn't surprise me in the least. An independent breed is just not going to tolerate aggressive physical contact by a stranger he has just met, especially a stranger that is already acting aggressivly towards him. By looping a leash over his head and taking him from his owner, Cesar was performing an aggressive act towards the Husky. The minute his foot touched the Husky's back, it became another aggressive act in the Husky's mind. The dog went into protection mode for himself and his owner. You have to understand how these dogs think and Cesar doesn't really. My Chows might have reacted the same way if some stranger had looped a leash over their head and walked them away from me and then 'tapped' them in the butt with their foot while I was within arms length.

I had the head trainer of a school try the 'dominance theory' on my 6 month old male chow once. He was happily standing next to me in class and had no problem with her until she walked up to him, suddenly leaned over him and put him in a bear hug. He leaped away from her and growled for the first time in his life and never let her near him again. She told me she just wanted to see if he had a dominant personality or not. She was the only trainer in the class who couldn't pet him from that point on and in fact was scared to come near him when other trainers would walk right up to him and ruffle his head. That same chow let the vet handle him any time he wanted because the vet was a very calm man who moved slowly and gently and didn't try to dominate or use force on the chows.

So, Cesar has some things that I have used like introducing new dogs together while taking walks around the neighborhood. (actually, that is the only thing). But I don't agree with his domination theorys. You will never get your Chow to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc.

sorry for the ramble.......I hate to see the independent breeds get labelled as mean or stupid when they really are wonderful, very smart dogs!

[CorgiPaws]

A few things here.

1. Cesar is a quack.

2. I have PERSONALLY met him.. and he's a arrogant jerk.


3.

You will never get your [dog] to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc.

I think this hits the nail on the head. It is true for any breed....
but then, there will always be those who like to think their "breed" is the exception to everything...

[Jacksons Mom]

We will just agree to disagree about Cesar

Lol, definitely. I'm not arging with that.

Like I said, I don't really promote his training methods or anything.

I have raised Chows and Lhasa's for over 30 years so basically have had nothing but dominant and problem dogs I started out watching every episode of Cesar and in the beginning thought that he might have some potential. But after seeing almost all of his shows, I realized there was no way his 'training' methods would work on Chows, and most independent breeds.

Cesar's problem in the hour long show is that he doesn't spend any time learning the dogs personality. A true problem dog needs to have a significant amount of time spent with it. You can't walk up to the dog, snap your fingers, and establish a bond with it in twenty minutes and then demand things of it. All that trainer is going to do is establish a great amount of distrust in the dog. The dog may actually obey the trainer after twenty minutes of harrassment, but it will be with total beligerance and it won't last. I know the show is edited but he still does not spend anywhere near the amount of time with the dogs that is needed to establish a relationship with them.

As far as the Husky video goes, it doesn't surprise me in the least. An independent breed is just not going to tolerate aggressive physical contact by a stranger he has just met, especially a stranger that is already acting aggressivly towards him. By looping a leash over his head and taking him from his owner, Cesar was performing an aggressive act towards the Husky. The minute his foot touched the Husky's back, it became another aggressive act in the Husky's mind. The dog went into protection mode for himself and his owner. You have to understand how these dogs think and Cesar doesn't really. My Chows might have reacted the same way if some stranger had looped a leash over their head and walked them away from me and then 'tapped' them in the butt with their foot while I was within arms length.

I had the head trainer of a school try the 'dominance theory' on my 6 month old male chow once. He was happily standing next to me in class and had no problem with her until she walked up to him, suddenly leaned over him and put him in a bear hug. He leaped away from her and growled for the first time in his life and never let her near him again. She told me she just wanted to see if he had a dominant personality or not. She was the only trainer in the class who couldn't pet him from that point on and in fact was scared to come near him when other trainers would walk right up to him and ruffle his head. That same chow let the vet handle him any time he wanted because the vet was a very calm man who moved slowly and gently and didn't try to dominate or use force on the chows.

So, Cesar has some things that I have used like introducing new dogs together while taking walks around the neighborhood. (actually, that is the only thing). But I don't agree with his domination theorys. You will never get your Chow to be a family member by dominating it or using those forceful kinds of tactics. It has to be positive feedback with them, clicker training, and constant encouragement, etc.

sorry for the ramble.......I hate to see the independent breeds get labelled as mean or stupid when they really are wonderful, very smart dogs!

Very true!

However, I do want to add, a large majority of his show, he does take dogs to his center and keeps them there for weeks at a time.

[Jacksons Mom]

2. I have PERSONALLY met him.. and he's a arrogant jerk.

I've never met the man personally but I have a close online friend who got a chance to hang out with him for a few days, dinners, dogs, etc. (It was through Make a Wish foundation) and he was nothing but sweet and nice.

[CorgiPaws]

I've never met the man personally but I have a close online friend who got a chance to hang out with him for a few days, dinners, dogs, etc. (It was through Make a Wish foundation) and he was nothing but sweet and nice.

Consider the cause it was for and what circumstances it was under.

[Jacksons Mom]

Consider the cause it was for and what circumstances it was under.

You've got a point! May I ask what he did to make you believe he's an arrogant jerk?

Because I've met quite a few celebrities who will come across as arrogant one time, and the next they're total sweethearts. People have bad days, including celebrities. Just sayin'. I'm not sticking up for him or anything. Like I said, I've never met the guy.