What is a proper correction?

[JaniceG]

Years ago, like in the late 70s, I put my two dobies through beginning obedience training. There were a lot of corrections, like pushing their butt down for a sit, and snapping the choke collar in heel working. Now I read that you really shouldn't do any of that, nor should you even use a choke collar. So how do you handle it when your dog won't sit, or when your dog won't stay, or come to you?

[RawFedDogs]

Years ago, like in the late 70s, I put my two dobies through beginning obedience training. There were a lot of corrections, like pushing their butt down for a sit, and snapping the choke collar in heel working. Now I read that you really shouldn't do any of that, nor should you even use a choke collar. So how do you handle it when your dog won't sit, or when your dog won't stay, or come to you?

If your dog understands what you want, understands how to do it, sees you as his leader, teacher, and mentor, and is paying attention to you, he will do whatever you ask. It's as simple as that. You must lay that foundation and you will have an obeident dog. Whenever my dogs are in a situation that they don't know what to do or how to act, they will alway be watching me for clues as to what to do. Anytime they hear their name called, they look at me for direction as to what to do next.

I recommend you read the following books on dog training:
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
The Other End of the Leash by Dr. Patricia McConnell
Clicking With Your Dog by Peggy Tillman
Culture Clash by Jean Dobbs

These books should give you insight as to the modern methods of positive dog training.

[UnleashDogTraining]

You have to learn to put yourself in your dogs shoes.

Too many distractions - master all cues in your home, on your property, slowly move away and build on distractions. I cant ask my puppy to stay in a dog park the first day, same for your adult dog, work up the distractions

Not enough incentive - if you have been using force to get your dog to respond, that was incentive, listen or else, now you want to use positive reinforcement, well what are the rewards? Do you understand what the premack principle is?
Using high rate activities are rewards for low rate ones.
i.e sit before we go for a walk, sit before I put your food bowl down, sit before I allow you to meet that new dog
Give your dog incentive to listen to you

Not understanding what you are asking - What is your cue? have you taught your dog to sit by pushing its bum. Well now youll be doing lots of bum pushing. Why not practice luring your dog, lure a treat over its head 5- 6 times, than quickly use an empty hand, raise it over its head, and if it sits, use the other hand to reward it. repeat this slowly building distractions, than add the word "sit!" ----> empty hand over the head -----> dog sits = reward
dog doesnt sit -------> pause for half a minute, or time out, or remove the reward from the area, and retry

Take your time to build distractions, offer incentive, and train your dog what you want effectively before you ask for it.
For more advice, check out unleash dog training in Brampton, Vaughan and Mississauga

[CurtisM]

Corrections haven't changed, the use of them has.

In the 70's everybody trained Koehler, you man handle and bully a dog into doing what you want. You'd push a pup's butt down to teach it to sit, you'd change direction sharply whilst correction to teach it to heel. These were unfair practices that involved correction a dog before it knew what was expected of it.

The polar opposite is this new "All positive" wave, which isn't new btw, it's come and gone several times. On purely training forums I frequent the bulk of the questions come from positive reinforcement only trainers with dogs who simply would rather do what they want than listen to the hairless ape with a "Train-Me" treat.

Koehler Method WORKED, still works, it's just unfair. Your dog can respect you and not like you, and vice versa.

The all positive stuff doesn't work, at all. It's only good for parlor tricks and teaching a dog HOW to do behaviors, when coupled with REAL distraction it goes out of the window. When the value of not obeying you outweighs the value of your praise and treat your dog will disobey you if you don't use corrections: Period.

Now if you TEACH a dog what you want him to do with positive methods, and later enforce the fact that obeying commands is NOT an option, that it is indeed required via corrections, you will have a fully trained dog. It's very fair because he KNOWS what you're asking, when he refuses to comply, he brings the correction on himself. Dogs do have a sense of fairness, if you take a handler hard dog and correct him for no reason, he may very well come after you. Take that same dog and let him blow a command and correct him, and he won't make a sound, because he KNOWS it was coming (if you're a good, consistent trainer anyway).

Now down to the ways you correct. You can correct a dog with a simple jerk on the lead and a flat buckle collar, it works well for weaker dogs. You can use something like a fur saver, that may work well for weaker-average dogs. You can use a prong and leash correction for a harder dog. I prefer harder dogs and prongs. The prong means you don't have to go jerking away, the prong is like the difference between churning butter by hand or using a mixer. You can use massive amounts of force and hurt a harder dog with fur saver/choker corrections, or you can use a slight flick of your wrist and get the same result with a prong. Easier on you, easier on the dog. You can also use an e-collar correction. I love to use e-collars on low settings, it's almost like a tap and saying "Hey, pay attention"...but when the power is turned up it can become a formidable correction for a dog who's heavily distracted.

The important changes from 1970-2010 is not how a correction is given, it's when and for what. When you correct a dog ONLY for failing to comply to commands he's been taught with positive methods. When you use the least amount of force you can to get the job done. And when you time corrections correctly, you're training with the most effective, modern method known to man to date. The key difference is positive reinforcement! You can teach a dog everything you need him to do with food, toys, and praise, but it MUST be proofed with distractions and corrections to have a fully trained, reliable dog.

[RawFedDogs]

Decided not to make this post after re-reading CurtisM's post. Would delete it but it would make following posts look funny.

[Ania's Mommy]

You are right ... I decided not to make this post. Thank you for pointing it out.

Hmmm... That seems excessively harsh... Curtis is not saying that the method you quoted was a GOOD one...

I very much respect your doggie knowledge, RFD. Quite honestly, if not for you, Ania would still be on crap food and I would be none the wiser. I have also used many of your training suggestions and agree with much of what you say.

But I am always interested in other people's point of view. And I think that if it is done in a respectful manner, that it should be welcome here. It IS a forum, after all.

I find that I am rather enjoying this debate. And it seems that Curtis is actually very nicely articulating what some other members have tried to say in the past. Not saying that I agree with him (or not). But I think it's always a good idea to see all sides of an argument.

Richelle

[RawFedDogs]

I find that I am rather enjoying this debate. And it seems that Curtis is actually very nicely articulating what some other members have tried to say in the past. Not saying that I agree with him (or not). But I think it's always a good idea to see all sides of an argument.

You know I'm not normally one to stifle a discussion but when someone advocates the cruelty that this guy does, I can't allow it. I don't think you understand what the Koehler method of training is. It's hanging a dog off the ground by a choke chain. Koehler also adocated putting a dog on a table, tying his leash to a tree limb so if the dog jumped off the table, he would hang himself, again on a choke chain. This was used to teach "stay". The koeller method is the cruelest method I have ever known of training a dog. Yes, it worked. It was used extensively during WWII to train military dogs. BUT it was very very cruel. It will not be advocated on this board by anyone.

In my early days of dog training, I read a book by Koehler. I put it down and never used any methods at all.

[Ania's Mommy]

There. You see? I never would have known that the Kohler method was so terrible had you not responded. You're right; it is a cruel method that seems to have no use in modern training.

To play devil's advocate for a sec, I don't think that Curtis was reccomending this method. Just illustrating how training has changed over the years.

But if he DOES start recomending the Kohler method, forget all that stuff I said about lively debates being good and resort to your banning.

[RawFedDogs]

There. You see? I never would have known that the Kohler method was so terrible had you not responded. You're right; it is a cruel method that seems to have no use in modern training.

To play devil's advocate for a sec, I don't think that Curtis was reccomending this method. Just illustrating how training has changed over the years.

You're right. After re-reading his post and thinking about it, I decided to remove my post. Thank you for pointing it out.

[jiml]

I think curtis's post is a tad exaggerated. If he had said PP methods are not ALWAYS reliable for EVERY dog. OK thats reasonable, Im sure some would agree and some think that his opinion is BS. However I have seen quite a few PP trained dogs that are quite reliable w distractions. His blanket statement is just false