New foster dog freaking out over our tall kids

[kelleykakes]

I need some advice-- never had to deal with a dog that lunges, growls and bites. We have two tall teen girls and when they came home today the new foster lunged at both of them. Now the husband and I are both tall, and he's totally fine with us.
One daughter managed to chill him out by wooing him with hamburger, but the other one he'll growl and stalk... unless she's petting one of the other dogs and then he's totally okay with her petting him, too.

How do we correct this?

[xchairity_casex]

FIND A BEHAVIORLIST!!!! please pelase dont try taking this on yourselves!!! this is SERIOUS! human aggression is very very serious thing and should never be dealt with alone especielly for soemone who is inexperienced!

the stalking is deff what worries me he is seeing your daughter as prey not that hes fearful not that he sees her appraoch as being bad but hes stalking her like prey. dogs only stalk prey to kill it not to warn it not to make it move away but to kill.

this could be the type of dog who if it sees you or your daughter trip and fall on the floor or crouch down in a valnerable position hes going to attack and those types of dogs are very dangerous.
please seek proffessional help!

[MollyWoppy]

It kindof sounds like herding behaviour to me. I hope it is anyway. Mol stalks me, and when I turn and run at her, she zooms around the place.
How about if your daughter took the pup to obedience class, one on one in a controlled situation, that may help form a bond.
I think cattle dogs are just naturally suspicious and generally not every one's best friend right off the batt, but once they know you, they are your friend for life.

[xchairity_casex]

that is a good point also i didnt think about herding behavior but if the dog is attacking its really hard to say which it is herding behvior or prey drive
a behaviorlist would be able to tell you

[BoxerParty]

I would do a heavy-duty "nothing in life is free" regime, and make sure that ALL good things come from the daughter the dog is least comfortable with (you should, of course, supervise). If he learns that ALL meals/treats/toys/pats/walks come FROM HER, he will begin to associate her with all of the things that he likes and his discomfort with her should lessen.

A behaviourist is also a great idea if you have access to one.

[Maxy24]

Your daughter should give him some hamburger obviously.

On a more serious note, it might actually work. My dog "stalks" guests because he is terrified of them, his stalking is not because he's hunting them. He wants to watch them because letting someone dangerous out of his sight could result in him getting killed (in his mind), keep your enemies close right? He doesn't follow them in a normal walk because he also wants to avoid drawing their attention to him, so he slinks around after them, walks slow and hesitantly if he tries to get close. He's trying to watch but be unnoticed. This appears as stalking behavior because when a dog hunts they want to achieve the same same thing, get close without being seen. But in the case of a fearful dog they are not then planning to attack, they are just trying to watch.

Chances are the dog was either undersocialized with people your kids age or had a negative experience with them, in either case the motivation is the same, fear. The dog needs to learn to trust and feel safe with your daughters and having them toss treats whenever they walk by him is a good way to change his view of them. For example my dog barks at people walking by the house, he is fear aggressive. I began giving treats as soon as I heard or saw people coming and within a week or two for the first time as people walked past his tail began to wag and he took his eyes away from the window to look expectantly at me "Look mom, people! that means cookie time right?!" I've taken his terror and turned it into joy. Same sort of thing can be done. If he learns only good things come from your daughters he'll likely stop automatically feeling fear and start feeling joy.

That said I do not think it is particularly safe for this dog to be around your kids unsupervised or even off leash unless the behavior only occurs in very specific circumstances. Right now it sounds like this dog needs to be placed in an adult only home, but if he bites your daughter not only will you have the trauma for your child but the dog will be killed. So you must do everything to avoid letting the dog react. Keep him leashed around the girls and only let them interact with him in a VERY positive manner. So they can feed him, train him commands using treats, and maybe play ball if the dog already knows how to drop it, they shouldn't be removing it from his mouth (you can do that for them otherwise, then let them throw it). They can take him on walks (though you should supervise at least a few to make sure there are not issues with the dog becoming fearful on the walk).

Your daughters should stop trying to pet the dog, it's detrimental to building the trust between them if they keep trying to touch him when he's afraid of them. If he clearly wants to be petted that's a different story, but sometimes it's hard to tell if you're not really good at reading dog body language. In any case he should be the one initiating any sort of interaction like that.

In any situation that might cause him to get upset they should integrate treats. If he growls when they stand up from the couch they should toss a treat right before they stand up so he can associate the good feelings the treat gives him with their standing and come to look at the movement as a good thing for him. I think having them train him some simple tricks and commands (with no corrections, punishment, or physical manipulation) would do WONDERS for teaching the dog to see them in a positive light. Have each of them do a 5 minute training session every day. It will also help make him more adoptable. Supervise to make sure the girls do not do anything that will scare the dog (like push on his butt to get him to sit).

If his fear clearly and permanently goes away (no jumpiness, no more reactions or near reactions, no avoiding the girls) then the treats can be greatly reduced. If he trusts them and feels safe around them then there is no more need to try and counter his feelings, they've already changed. The girls should then continue to be positive figures for the dog, never yelling at, punishing, or being rough with him, you don't want to rip that trust away from him again. They should continue the training sessions and keep playing with and walking him just so he continues to build trust with them and see them positively.

It really does sound like a dog trainer/behaviorist, who uses positive methods and has experience dealing with fear aggression, should be used. You should also contact the rescue organization you are fostering for (if you are fostering for a rescue) and inform them of this problem, this dog should go to an adult only home it sounds like.

How constant is this behavior? Is he just constantly following the girl and growling, or do certain behaviors/movements set the dog off?

[xellil]

I need some advice-- never had to deal with a dog that lunges, growls and bites. We have two tall teen girls and when they came home today the new foster lunged at both of them. Now the husband and I are both tall, and he's totally fine with us.
One daughter managed to chill him out by wooing him with hamburger, but the other one he'll growl and stalk... unless she's petting one of the other dogs and then he's totally okay with her petting him, too.

How do we correct this?

Who did he bite? What makes you think his aggression is because they are tall?

And finally - does the rescue group know the dog is showing signs of aggression? They should be responsible for getting him evaluated, not you. you should let them know ASAP. If you ARE the rescue group, then you should have a policy for what to do with an aggressive dog.

[MollyWoppy]

You know, what Maxy24 said is absolutely spot on.
For example, Mollie is absolutely terrified of one particular man up the road (long story), and that has transgressed into any man that looks like that one particular man. Unfortunately, one of our friends looks like this man. So everytime he comes around (once every couple of months or so, not enough for her to get over herself), she will bark (sounds aggressive to others, frightened to me), keep her distance but is always in his near vicinity totally focused on him. She'll even lunge at him if he tries to force the issue, even with treats, she hasn't tried to bite, will maybe show her teeth if he doesn't back off. (I nipped that in the bud after the first time).
The only thing that works is when I force the guy to absolutely ignore her. I discovered that if he looks Mol in the eye, it seems threatening to her. So, now when he steps foot in the door, he's told not to look at her, (he's pig headed) not to talk to her and definitely not to touch her. I give him some nice treats that, without looking, he just tosses gently in her direction.
And, I'll tell you what, what a difference. She'll come up to him and as long as he doesn't look her directly in the eye, she'll actually take treats and lick his leg or arm or whatever.
Knowing cattle dogs, it doesn't really sound like this dog is being aggressive to me, it sounds like it is frightened, just needing to very slowly build trust.
Hope it works out ok in the end, actually, knowing you and your family Kelley, I'm sure it will.