Chicken By-Product Meal

[claybuster]

I find it hard to believe that someone would actually pick processed over fresh. I don't care how much meat by product your food has in it, most of the nutrients in it are dead after processing anyway... and somehow you find it superior?

Abady research:

Fresh animal tissue is processed once. The animal meals are also processed only once, as are fats and oils, unlike kibble in which animal meals are processed twice. Importantly in Abady granular products the vitamins are never exposed to heat or pressure. Dogs do not have a requirement for carbohydrates and generally fare better with lower levels. Only the Abady Company’s special process permits the levels of each ingredient to be included independently, allowing an increase in fats, an increase in protein, and a decrease in carbohydrates according to the requirements of that formula. In Abady granular most of the grains are fully processed, independently of most of the TBN content. Both grains and tissue building nutrients are blended together at the end of the process, (after each has been appropriately processed), not at the beginning. In addition this special food has a granular texture that does not require it be chewed. This prevents plaque from forming, just as in Nature, thereby maintaining cleaner teeth.


How do I find granular superior to raw? Good question Miss Corgi Paws and I will try to explain. You're average cup of raw, even if you took whole prey and blenderized it, your looking at about 400-450 cals per cup. I feed 800 cals per cup. You need 2 cups of raw to match what I can do with one cup.

I would not gamble with commercial store part meat parts regardless of where it comes from (butcher shop or Wal-Mart) unless it was first cooked or at least lightly processed. The ONLY raw I feed my dog comes from what I hunt myself. In other words, I am in control of my meat sources, not Sam the butcher or Sams Town food store. You see that way I know the animal I am feeding was not taken down by drugs like sodium pentothal. That way I know my dog is not subject to the hormone, steroid and antibiotics commonly found in cattle feeds. You think I want that junk going into my dogs body? All the preservatives going in there to keep it fresh so it can last an extra week on the shelves...no way I want that for my dog. If my dogs get any commercially bought meats, yes I am cooking it, without hesitation or reservation. Hopefully some of the steriods, hormones, drugs, etc. can get cooked out. Another gamble, the choking hazzard. More dogs probably end it at the emergency vet with internal bleeding from something lodged the wrong way due to raw feeding. The emergency vets must love you folks, that must be 3K per trip. Yes I have far greater safety with a cup of granular than your commercial meat parts, and I am getting all the same benefits.

You know how confident I am Miss Linsey? I'll put my dogs blood work up against anyone’s on this list for the better numbers. I'll hit a 9.9 or a 99.9 every time. Any takers? Loser has to donate $25 to the winners choice (make it something like a Zoo, shelter, SPCA). Anyone, I don't care how long on raw, my dogs eats straight granular with no mixing of other feeds, and I'll put her blood work up against any raw feeder on this list.

[CorgiPaws]

Abady research:

Credibility to any word in that quote lost.
I just don't get how YOU can jump on anyone for "buying into advertising" and here you are, totally blindsighted by one copany and their "research". I said it before and I'll say it again, ANY idiot can tweak a test or experiment to give the results they want it to. ANYONE who has done a 6th grade scence project knows that. So why is it that you don't care enough to look at any other research, or experiment yourself, and just go alonw with whatever Abady says? I thought you were actually more intelligent than that, Mr. no-advertising-can-reach-me.

How do I find granular superior to raw? Good question Miss Corgi Paws and I will try to explain. You're average cup of raw, even if you took whole prey and blenderized it, your looking at about 400-450 cals per cup. I feed 800 cals per cup. You need 2 cups of raw to match what I can do with one cup.

Calories alone do not make a food superior. How does your highly processed food stack up when it comes to protien? (keep in mind the majority of the protein listed on your commercial bag is dead due to processing) You're a big advocate of feeding a species-appropriate diet, yet your second ingredient is rice. How do you justify that? You'd honestly rather give your dog a cup of rice than a whole raw chicken breast?

or at least lightly processed.

Again claiming processed food is better than raw? I'd hate to be your dog...
I really hope this isn't how you think in reguards to your own health. Have you not seen the damage processed foods can do to your own species, when our food is a million times regulated than the dogs? And yet you're not just kay with processed foods for your pup, but you find them SUPERIOR? My, my, my you have a lot to learn.

Another gamble, the choking hazzard.

You're right, gotta watch those carnivores, I hear they don't know how to eat meat.

More dogs probably end it at the emergency vet with internal bleeding from something lodged the wrong way due to raw feeding. The emergency vets must love you folks, that must be 3K per trip.

You're right about this in reguards to cooked bones, or size-innapropriate bones. As far as raw meaty bones, you're wrong.

Yes I have far greater safety with a cup of granular than your commercial meat parts, and I am getting all the same benefits.

Safety is debatable, and that depends on what research you want to buy into. As far as the benefits, you're getting none of them. You're giving your dog a species innapropriate diet (by product is animal product, yes, but the bulk of it is intestines, which they do NOT naturally eat) consisting of primarily by products and rice, and as if that weren't bad enough, they're processed killing what good was in them to begin with. Where's the benefit in that?

You know how confident I am Miss Linsey? I'll put my dogs blood work up against anyone’s on this list for the better numbers. I'll hit a 9.9 or a 99.9 every time. Any takers? Loser has to donate $25 to the winners choice (make it something like a Zoo, shelter, SPCA). Anyone, I don't care how long on raw, my dogs eats straight granular with no mixing of other feeds, and I'll put her blood work up against any raw feeder on this list.

Sounds like a waste of time to me. I'm not going to spend the time and money to disprove you, which is exactly what would happen.

[claybuster]

Credibility to any word in that quote lost.
I just don't get how YOU can jump on anyone for "buying into advertising" and here you are, totally blindsighted by one copany and their "research".

So, a 37 year proven track record with no recalls not good? Why should I believe the research of Innova or Champion PetFoods? Is their research better in their tenure? How long have feeds like EVO and Orijen been around? Have 37 years worth of research gone into those foods? I don't even think these feeds have been around much longer than 5 years. Yet with the limited experience, their research is something special that makes those feeds better than Abady? I am not anti-raw as you know, I feed raw on occasion (when I can hunt the meat). I realize there are benefits in raw.
Yes fresh foods would be more ideal over processed. But there is absolutely no way you or anyone else could ever possibly convince me that omnivore kibble diets like EVO and Orijen are better option that what I am doing with the Granular. I'll take Abady research and science over the rest pack.

[RawFedDogs]

But there is absolutely no way you or anyone else could ever possibly convince me that omnivore kibble diets like EVO and Orijen are better option that what I am doing with the Granular.

I'm not saying they are better, just saying they are not any worse and none of them can be classified as an option to a proper raw diet.

I'll take Abady research and science over the rest pack.

Have you actually seen any of that "research"? What is it about their so called research that convinces you it is better than the other companies. Truthfully, I have never seen any research by any of them and seriously doubt if it exists. Would you trust research by Ford Motor Company "proving" that Fords are superior automobiles? I doubt it. Any research done on any product by the company that makes it is always highly suspect.

[CorgiPaws]

Yet with the limited experience, their research is something special that makes those feeds better than Abady?

What does one dog food company's "research" have a damn thing to do wtih dogs being carnivores? It doesn't take much research to know that dogs are carnivores, therefore need a food that has as much meat content as possible. By throwing in animal parts that a dog would NOT normally eat (intestines in by-product meal) and mixing it with rice you're simply not getting a quality product. Any idiot off the streets that knows a thing about carnivores could tell you that. Does your food have more animal product? Maybe, but even then it's the parts of the animals they DON'T NORMALLY EAT, therefore it's a mute point.

I am not anti-raw as you know, I feed raw on occasion (when I can hunt the meat).

Let me get this stright. You don't trust meat from the grocery store that has strict standards laid out by the FDA for human consumption, but you trust a dog food company with very little standard made for them by law?

I realize there are benefits in raw.

Yet you refuse to realize you're not getting a single one of these benefits.

But there is absolutely no way you or anyone else could ever possibly convince me that omnivore kibble diets like EVO and Orijen are better option that what I am doing with the Granular.

IMO, EVO isn't much better than Abady because there is no kibble that can even come close to a raw diet. The reason I feel it is superior to other kibbles is that the quality of meat products used is far superior to the by-product heavy in intestines used in your food. They use muscle meats, which should make up about 80% of a dog's diet. Are the fruits and veggies appropriate? No, absolutely not, but neither is your rice so we can call it even at that.

I'll take Abady research and science over the rest pack.

That's fine. Your dog can have her intestines and rice. Mine will eat their Lamb, Venison, Buffalo, and Beef.

[claybuster]

What does one dog food company's "research" have a damn thing to do wtih dogs being carnivores?

Because Linsey, the industry goes out of it way to try and convince the public that dogs are omnivores. The industry openly admits they are feeding omnivores. They skew their test results in an attempt to disprove the scientific fact that dogs are carnivores....all but Abady. Can't you see that?
Sure, EVO and Orijen talk a good game, then they give you cranberries and blue berries. Come on Linsey, you can't you see through that farce? Abady is NOT dependent upon other companies already done research that attempts to prove dogs are omnivores. Abady was a bio-chemist, did his own research on the ingredients and they have their own testing and research facilities...for 37 years.

Does your food have more animal product? Maybe, but even then it's the parts of the animals they DON'T NORMALLY EAT, therefore it's a mute point.

That would be a moot point, not mute, and it is not a moot point. Animal source protein IS animal source protein, whether that be muscle meat or brains and intestine. Fresh muscle meat is part of the problem today as to why foods are inadequate (kibbles). Calculate out the moisture content (75%) of meat muscle, the entire ingredient amounts to only about 12.5% actual chicken protein. These are exactly the type of diets that need the "heavy supplementation", but with what? Cranberries? Apples? Garlic? mono something clay which amounts to nothing more dirt? No thank you. I'll gladly take the nasty aesthetically unappealing ingredients for my carnivore any day of the week over the omnivore buffet seen today even in those high end kibbles.

That's fine. Your dog can have her intestines and rice. Mine will eat their Lamb, Venison, Buffalo, and Beef.

Don't forget the omnivore buffet that follows! BTW, those 4 ingredients you listed represents about 300% water out of 400% (75% each). Being only a portion of the remainder is actual meat proteins, those 4 ingredients would only equal 50% of the protein core. Not to worry, the buffet that follows will fill the remainder of the protein core.

[claybuster]

I'm not saying they are better, just saying they are not any worse and none of them can be classified as an option to a proper raw diet.



Have you actually seen any of that "research"? What is it about their so called research that convinces you it is better than the other companies. Truthfully, I have never seen any research by any of them and seriously doubt if it exists. Would you trust research by Ford Motor Company "proving" that Fords are superior automobiles? I doubt it. Any research done on any product by the company that makes it is always highly suspect.

Because the other guys are trying to convinve me my dog is an omnivore. If not, if they talk a carnivore theme, they don't back it up with the ingredients, trying to convince me apples and blue berries and seaweed are the answers. Abady tells me dogs are true carnivores and back it up with some undefatted beef liver, fish meal, and of course lots and lots of by-products...I like that in a dog food!

[RawFedDogs]

Abady tells me dogs are true carnivores and back it up with some undefatted beef liver, fish meal, and of course lots and lots of by-products...I like that in a dog food!

And L O T S and L O T S and L O T S of rice. No way are by-products equal to real animal parts in nutrition.

On another subject, you should read the white paper on the Orijen web site.

[claybuster]

On another subject, you should read the white paper on the Orijen web site.

Orijen White Paper promotional data all sounds very nice. I don't have any issues with most of what there saying, they're just skewing certain things to justify what they're doing. There is no real progress so to speak when it comes to the end result of the food themselves. They talk the carnivore theme, yet are still subject to the same exact drawbacks and limitation of a kibble. Case in point, grain matter was no doubt the glue holding together a kibble. They shun the use of grain yet need to find some new glue. So, the solutions are fruits and vegetables. A fiber swap, grains for plant matter. I think most all dogs got along perfectly fine with the grain matter (surviving, yet probably not thriving) yet the grains now are not ....fashionable. Potatoes are the common fix, technically not a fiber per se, but acts like just the same and helps serves as the binder. Abady research would indicate, potatoes are one of those ingredients that should be avoided. There is a lot working in the diet besides the potatoes to get the fiber.

The promotional data White Paper is the perfect example of talking a carnivore theme but NOT delivering the goods. It is the perfect example of what I would refer to as the omnivore buffet of ingredients.

Buffet in Bold:

Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

See my point? Yes, they also have some very fine ingredients as well, but with all that? I think I know why the White Paper mentioned Herbivore and Ruminant after looking at all leaf they got in there, not to mention flowers and roots and lawn weeds like Dandelion.

Yea, I saw they fired a shot in Abadys direction with the 1970's specialty diets
claiming these diets were in essence the same as run of the mill kibble. Don't buy into it, you know why? Abady sold Raw from '72 till about '88 until the Granulars came about. And, it goes without saying when you feed natures diet a true carnivore diet like Raw, you do solve problems and these dogs do keep dogs med free and out of the Vets office. Because you know as well as anybody RFD, it does work when done right. They can say what the want about 1970 specialty diets, these were raw diets and they worked for all dogs. Abady has been in trouble in the past with labeling and medical in regards to the urinary track infection foods for cats. NY state wouldn't allow them to sell making medical claims on the product labeling. That was in the late ‘90s I think.

[claybuster]

then again, re-reading the part a 1970's diets they mention a shift to the Vets office to buy food. Hills and Purina are probably the real devil in the
70's diets making claims? Abady never sold in Vet offices I don't think (they're in the business of repeat customers so the Vets stay away).