Confused! Please help! *FOOD*

[Jester]

First post, so please be easy on me...

I've been reading and learning about food for months now and I just ran into this forum looking for information about the Whole Dog Journal (which people here seem not to like ). Anyway, my questions below.

Raw seems very popular and it seems most agree it is the "best," however I find too much conflicting information on the subject.

Here are the various suggestions in feeding:
- raw only (varied? organ meet?)
- raw + veggies
- raw + supplements
- quality kibble is good enough
- canned is better than dry
and so on, with a ton of nuances in between too.

Overall, the conclusions most people arrived at were nothing more than parroting of what they heard from someone else. Even when you get to the source it may be questionable. So instead of looking for opinion I figured I want definitive scientifically tested/based information.

The best I could find is this Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats put out by the National Research Council. I couldn't afford the book and can't find one at a local library (except for a few Universities far away) so I dug further and found the following "Cliffs Notes" version of the research paper available for free: Your Dog's Nutritional Needs.

So, I finally found the holy grail, however given the information I'm still confused about the following:
1. Is there a commercial pet food which will provide everything as outlined in the paper?
2. How would I go about providing all the nutrients which are needed if I go the DIY route?
3. If I find a high quality kibble which provides my dog with the proper amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, etc. will it be good enough or must I get canned/raw?
4. If kibble is ok, is there a need to wet it, so that it gets hydrated? I've read that hydration within the stomach can cause problems such as bloat -- unconfirmed.
5. Any tips for balancing quality and price?
6. Does the diet HAVE to be varied? For example, anything wrong with always using chicken or beef? Do you need to have other animals, organs, etc?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I realize that I'm asking for opinions, but I would prefer opinions based on extensive research instead of just parroting back something you've heard. Right now it's between Wellness Core, Innova EVO and frozen chicken bits in a varied diet. The intake requirement for my dog is about 1lb/day and I'd like to keep the cost at no more than $2/day or so.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I even in the right forum for this?!

Thanks!

[RawFedDogs]

Raw seems very popular and it seems most agree it is the "best," however I find too much conflicting information on the subject.

Here are the various suggestions in feeding:
- raw only (varied? organ meet?)
- raw + veggies
- raw + supplements
- quality kibble is good enough
- canned is better than dry
and so on, with a ton of nuances in between too.

So you want the actual facts? Dogs are carnivores. Thats a fact. If you wish, I can go into detail explaining why they are carnivores. The correct diet for a carnivore is raw meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else is needed. Some people aren't comfortable not feeding veggies to their dog because they have heard all their life that you must eat veggies. For humans (omnivores), that is a correct statement but dogs (carnivores) have no need for veggies. They are not physiologically equipped to digest nor extract nutrients from veggies at all. No supplements are needed as all their nutritional needs are met through meat, bones, and organs. This statement has been proven through millions of years of evolution.

The best I could find is this Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats put out by the National Research Council. I couldn't afford the book and can't find one at a local library (except for a few Universities far away) so I dug further and found the following "Cliffs Notes" version of the research paper available for free: Your Dog's Nutritional Needs.

I have never read the book you mention, however, I have seen the website you link to many times. This is a pamphlet written by one person BASED ON the book. It assumes that dogs are omnivores which they can't be. Since they can't digest nor extract nutrients from plant matter they CAN'T be omnivores.

This pamphlet lists the daily recommended allowances for all nutrients EXCEPT carbs. Wonder why that is? Because there are no nutritoinal need for carbs.

So, I finally found the holy grail, however given the information I'm still confused about the following:

Not quite the holy grail, now is it? Holy grails don't have a lot of errors in them nor do holy grails make such erroneous assumptions.

1. Is there a commercial pet food which will provide everything as outlined in the paper?

There is a nutrient profile listed on every bag of dog food. You should be able to find your answer there.

2. How would I go about providing all the nutrients which are needed if I go the DIY route?

Feed raw meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone and some organs. Period. All that is needed is contained in them. If that were not true, there would not be any dogs in the world today? Do you think dogs have been fed kibble or canned dog food forever?

3. If I find a high quality kibble which provides my dog with the proper amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, etc. will it be good enough or must I get canned/raw?

It will be good enough for them to survive but not good enough for them to live the healthiest life possible. Undoubtly raw is the healthiest diet to feed.

4. If kibble is ok, is there a need to wet it, so that it gets hydrated? I've read that hydration within the stomach can cause problems such as bloat -- unconfirmed.

I think its 6 of one and half dozen of the other. Doesn't make any difference.

5. Any tips for balancing quality and price?

Now you go to all the trouble trying to find the best food for your dog and now at this late date you mess up the whole equation by inserting price?

6. Does the diet HAVE to be varied? For example, anything wrong with always using chicken or beef? Do you need to have other animals, organs, etc?

Would you have optimum health if you ate exactly the same thing every meal?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I realize that I'm asking for opinions, but I would prefer opinions based on extensive research instead of just parroting back something you've heard.

All my facts are based on nature and evolution. Dogs eating what they have eaten for millions of years is proof enough for me. There is no research I know of that lasts longer than about 6 months. I prefer millions of years.

Right now it's between Wellness Core, Innova EVO and frozen chicken bits in a varied diet. The intake requirement for my dog is about 1lb/day and I'd like to keep the cost at no more than $2/day or so.

Isn't that kinda like saying, "I want the best sports car made but I don't want to pay more than $10,000 for it." hehe You should be able to feed most kibbles for less than $2/lb. I raw feed my dogs for about $.77/lb.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I even in the right forum for this?!

If you are serious about learning, you came to the right place. If you just want to start a discussion, you also came to the right place.

[DaneMama]

First post, so please be easy on me...

Welcome! Its always hard to start off on a forum with such a "dense" first post, but I will do my best!

I've been reading and learning about food for months now and I just ran into this forum looking for information about the Whole Dog Journal (which people here seem not to like ). Anyway, my questions below.

I'm not a fan of the WDJ just because it supports things that go against my beliefs. It is a great resource for a lot of things regardless and they have a lot of information on there. Its just not my favorite place.

Raw seems very popular and it seems most agree it is the "best," however I find too much conflicting information on the subject.

There are a lot of passionate people on here that do believe that raw is best, usually because they are astounded by the benefits they see first hand.

There is a ton of conflicting information on raw, that is the biggest hurdle IMO and the reason that there are so many people against it. What is best out of all the options? That is based on ones beliefs completely.

Here are the various suggestions in feeding:
- raw only (varied? organ meet?)
- raw + veggies
- raw + supplements
- quality kibble is good enough
- canned is better than dry
and so on, with a ton of nuances in between too.

What to choose?

I think it depends on what you believe. Do you believe that your dog is a carnivore or an omnivore based on morphological and behavioral characteristics? This takes actually looking at your dog from the inside and out, because you should base your dog's diet on what digestive system they have. Remember that the wolf is the closest extant species to the domestic dog...

If you believe that your dog is a carnivore, then you should feed them as such with a diet based on meat, bones and organs. If you believe your dog is an omnivore, you should feed them as such, with a mixed diet of meat based proteins and plant matter.

I think that basing your answer completely on clinical research is negligent to the whole picture. You have to realize that clinical trials and scientific research is funded and therefore has a "motive" to get desired results. Not to mention, do you know that these trials/studies are based off of good research in the first place?

Overall, the conclusions most people arrived at were nothing more than parroting of what they heard from someone else. Even when you get to the source it may be questionable. So instead of looking for opinion I figured I want definitive scientifically tested/based information.

This is an old subject here. Its been debated over and over with the same conclusion. And I think we have all come to agree to disagree on it.

One thing that you must ask yourself is: what do you consider scientifically tested/based information to be?

The best I could find is this Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats put out by the National Research Council. I couldn't afford the book and can't find one at a local library (except for a few Universities far away) so I dug further and found the following "Cliffs Notes" version of the research paper available for free: Your Dog's Nutritional Needs.

Personally, I think this "holy grail" is full of false information. The article lost all credibility to me when it stated that dogs have a requirement for carbohydrates, which is 100% false. They have absolutely no need for them. They are added into processed dog foods to add bulk and cut down on costs. Nothing more. They are basing their nutrition requirements on omnivore standards which sound great if we were talking about humans, but we are talking about dogs...which I 100% believe are carnivores.

It lost even further credibility when it says that dogs are descended from omnivores, 100% false. The closest extant species related to the domestic dog is the wolf. That is based on DNA comparative studies. The wolf is an opportunistic carnivore, which means that they will eat only meat, bones and organs unless there is not enough available. They will resort to eating vegetation if needed.

So, I finally found the holy grail, however given the information I'm still confused about the following:
1. Is there a commercial pet food which will provide everything as outlined in the paper?
2. How would I go about providing all the nutrients which are needed if I go the DIY route?
3. If I find a high quality kibble which provides my dog with the proper amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, etc. will it be good enough or must I get canned/raw?
4. If kibble is ok, is there a need to wet it, so that it gets hydrated? I've read that hydration within the stomach can cause problems such as bloat -- unconfirmed.
5. Any tips for balancing quality and price?
6. Does the diet HAVE to be varied? For example, anything wrong with always using chicken or beef? Do you need to have other animals, organs, etc?

Its confusing to you because its full of false information

1. According to the "holy grail" paper, of course there are quality kibbles that will provide all the nutrition. All kibbles contain meat, carbs, fats, vitamins and minerals at varying amounts depending on quality.

2. If you feed a diet of mostly meat, some raw bones and some organs from a variety of different protein sources, your dog's diet will be complete and balanced. The only supplementation that may be needed is omega fatty acids if grass fed meats are not given on a regular basis.

3. "Good enough" is a hard thing to rate. High quality kibble is good enough to allow your dog to survive of course or those companies will go out of business. It would depend on your opinion on if you think your dog is thriving or not. Big difference between surviving and thriving. I personally think that a diet based on just dry kibble is not "good enough."

4. There is no one reason that causes bloat. It is a multifactorial issue that no one knows enough about. There are numerous things that are known to cause it, but bloat is a whole different subject altogether and I could write a lot about it. IMO wetting food down could help, but wont prevent bloat from happening.

5. Quality and price tend to go hand in hand, no matter what you are talking about. Usually the higher the cost the better the quality, but that is not a rule. There are some kibbles out there that are really expensive but lacking in true quality ingredients.

6. Variety in any diet is key. The more variety the better, but that doesn't mean that you can't do a diet of just chicken or beef. Just as long as you have all of your bases covered one animal protein source is acceptable. Organs are a necessity in a dogs diet, whether it be raw or kibble. Animal by-products are organs, among other random things, and are good to see in a kibble but only if they are from a named meat source.

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I realize that I'm asking for opinions, but I would prefer opinions based on extensive research instead of just parroting back something you've heard. Right now it's between Wellness Core, Innova EVO and frozen chicken bits in a varied diet. The intake requirement for my dog is about 1lb/day and I'd like to keep the cost at no more than $2/day or so.

You have gotten quite a few of my opinions which I can tell you is from countless hours of research on dog nutrition and genetics. But then again, what I find to be good research might be completely different from what you believe to be good research.

Either way, it sounds like you care about your dog and only want the best and in the end that is all that matters!

[JayJayisme]

It's admirable that you want to base your decisions on a definitive, scientific study. Many of us would like the same thing, myself included. Sadly, nothing exists and the reason why is explained to some degree in my first post on page 9 of this thread (I recommend you read this thread in its entirety but pay particular attention to page 9).

backed by scientific study??

The reason why the book you found, which you refer to as "The Holy Grail", has been dismissed by many of us, myself included, is not only because it starts with the fundamentally flawed premise that dogs are omnivores, but also because at least part of the study was funded by the Pet Food Institute (seriously...look at page II in the front matter).

As I say in my post referenced above...follow the money.

[RCTRIPLEFRESH5]

imo the best kibbles out now are canidae grain free, wellness core,orijen,innova evo turkey and chicken

based on what ive read about raw ifeel it is the best way to feed a dog, if it is right for YOU, but i have never fed raw before.

i am one of the people who feels a quality kibble is good enouigh. i have seen youtube videos of fat dogs on raw, my dog is still eating a food that has grains in it but at almost 7 years old is shiny and vibrant. we are transitioning to grain free though, and maybe raw buit prolly not.

[CorgiPaws]

based on what ive read about raw ifeel it is the best way to feed a dog, if it is right for YOU,

What one owner to the next finds convenient does not change the fact that dogs are carnivores, or that kibble is a processed omnivore diet. I go for what's right for my dog.

i am one of the people who feels a quality kibble is good enouigh.

recognizing something is better, but okay with not doing it? Hmm, odd.

i have seen youtube videos of fat dogs on raw,

totally irrelevent.
there are fat dogs on every diet due to owners overfeeding.





But to the OP, the reason you have such a hard time finding hard facts and science is because it simply doesn't exist.
Really all there is out there is "dogs are carnivores" which is really all you need to know to feed a proper diet.
There are some misguided folks out there who wrongly believe that dogs are omnivores due to the clever marketing of the commercial pet food industry trying to justify the ingredients they use in their foods.

[Ania's Mommy]

There are some misguided folks out there who wrongly believe that dogs are carnivores due to the clever marketing of the commercial pet food industry trying to justify the ingredients they use in their foods.

I think you meant "Omnivores".

Richelle

[CorgiPaws]

I think you meant "Omnivores".

Richelle

oh darnit! good catch, i'll fix that! haha

[RCTRIPLEFRESH5]

What one owner to the next finds convenient does not change the fact that dogs are carnivores, or that kibble is a processed omnivore diet. I go for what's right for my dog.


recognizing something is better, but okay with not doing it? Hmm, odd.



totally irrelevent.
there are fat dogs on every diet due to owners overfeeding.





But to the OP, the reason you have such a hard time finding hard facts and science is because it simply doesn't exist.
Really all there is out there is "dogs are carnivores" which is really all you need to know to feed a proper diet.
There are some misguided folks out there who wrongly believe that dogs are omnivores due to the clever marketing of the commercial pet food industry trying to justify the ingredients they use in their foods.

for someone who doesnt push raw you are really annoying, you people make coming to this forum annoying. not everyone wants to feed raw, and if they dont want to they dont have to. to be honest, my dogs coat looks a lot better than any of the dogs you have pictures of and hes on grained canidae im sick of you telling me to feed raw or im a bad parent. get the hell off your highhorse. i believe logically raw sounds like the best, but idont believe its a huge miracle worker, and if my dog is very healthy on the food hes eating, i do not feel feeding raw is necessary. especially since your dogs are on raw, and look ok, but no better than most... and ive seen a lot of dogs that look even worse than yours on raw.

im glad you go for what is right for your dogs. im sure raw is right for your dogs. id hate to see how they would look on canidae with grains, tthey apparently dont have good genes since they look less than mediocre on your piture perfect diet.

this is the kibble forum, if you dont like people reccomending kibble stay in the raw forums.
if i get banned for this oh well...

[RCTRIPLEFRESH5]

First post, so please be easy on me...

I've been reading and learning about food for months now and I just ran into this forum looking for information about the Whole Dog Journal (which people here seem not to like ). Anyway, my questions below.

Raw seems very popular and it seems most agree it is the "best," however I find too much conflicting information on the subject.

Here are the various suggestions in feeding:
- raw only (varied? organ meet?)
- raw + veggies
- raw + supplements
- quality kibble is good enough
- canned is better than dry
and so on, with a ton of nuances in between too.

Overall, the conclusions most people arrived at were nothing more than parroting of what they heard from someone else. Even when you get to the source it may be questionable. So instead of looking for opinion I figured I want definitive scientifically tested/based information.

The best I could find is this Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats put out by the National Research Council. I couldn't afford the book and can't find one at a local library (except for a few Universities far away) so I dug further and found the following "Cliffs Notes" version of the research paper available for free: Your Dog's Nutritional Needs.

So, I finally found the holy grail, however given the information I'm still confused about the following:
1. Is there a commercial pet food which will provide everything as outlined in the paper?
2. How would I go about providing all the nutrients which are needed if I go the DIY route?
3. If I find a high quality kibble which provides my dog with the proper amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, etc. will it be good enough or must I get canned/raw?
4. If kibble is ok, is there a need to wet it, so that it gets hydrated? I've read that hydration within the stomach can cause problems such as bloat -- unconfirmed.
5. Any tips for balancing quality and price?
6. Does the diet HAVE to be varied? For example, anything wrong with always using chicken or beef? Do you need to have other animals, organs, etc?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I realize that I'm asking for opinions, but I would prefer opinions based on extensive research instead of just parroting back something you've heard. Right now it's between Wellness Core, Innova EVO and frozen chicken bits in a varied diet. The intake requirement for my dog is about 1lb/day and I'd like to keep the cost at no more than $2/day or so.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I even in the right forum for this?!

Thanks!

op most of the best ion show dogs in all of the popular dog shows are on eukanuba, which is a low quality kibble, and they look great. not all of our dogs have champion genetics, so to make up for it, just feed a much higher quality kibble and theyll look great as well. dont let anyone pressure you into feeding raw. on the other hand dont elt anyone pressure you into kibble either. do what you want.