Confused! Please help! *FOOD*

[CorgiPaws]

for someone who doesnt push raw you are really annoying, you people make coming to this forum annoying. not everyone wants to feed raw, and if they dont want to they dont have to. to be honest, my dogs coat looks a lot better than any of the dogs you have pictures of and hes on grained canidae im sick of you telling me to feed raw or im a bad parent. get the hell off your highhorse. i believe logically raw sounds like the best, but idont believe its a huge miracle worker, and if my dog is very healthy on the food hes eating, i do not feel feeding raw is necessary. especially since your dogs are on raw, and look ok, but no better than most... and ive seen a lot of dogs that look even worse than yours on raw.

im glad you go for what is right for your dogs. im sure raw is right for your dogs. id hate to see how they would look on canidae with grains, tthey apparently dont have good genes since they look less than mediocre on your piture perfect diet.

this is the kibble forum, if you dont like people reccomending kibble stay in the raw forums.
if i get banned for this oh well...

...I was jsut curious as to why you would recognize raw as the best thing, and then decide not to feed it, and go for something that is just "good enough"



thanks for the personal attacks on my dogs.


geeze.

[RCTRIPLEFRESH5]

...I was jsut curious as to why you would recognize raw as the best thing, and then decide not to feed it, and go for something that is just "good enough"



thanks for the personal attacks on my dogs.


geeze.

i said its the best if it fits you, AND IVE TOLD YOU AIM A NUMBER OF TIMES ITS NOT BEST FOR ME AND TO STOP PRESSING THE ISSUE. which you refused. i just pointed out that your dogs are good looking dogs, but look no different than any dogs on science diet. champs coat is lackluster.

now danemammas dogs are a good example of raw feeding. those are some nice looking dans./;)

[CorgiPaws]

champs coat is lackluster.

that's ironic.
champ is my canidae dog.
not on raw.
good job, though.

ETA:

tthey apparently dont have good genes since they look less than mediocre on your piture perfect diet

that's what you said. Not "good looking, but not perfect"

[RawFedDogs]

I'm closing the thread for an hour or two to let eveyone calm down. I'll open it back up later. Y'all all count to 10 and take some deep breaths.

OK!!! I've reopened the thread. Y'all behave now, ya hea?

[SubMariner]

First post, so please be easy on me...

I've been reading and learning about food for months now and I just ran into this forum looking for information about the Whole Dog Journal (which people here seem not to like ). Anyway, my questions below.

Raw seems very popular and it seems most agree it is the "best," however I find too much conflicting information on the subject.

Here are the various suggestions in feeding:
- raw only (varied? organ meet?)
- raw + veggies
- raw + supplements
- quality kibble is good enough
- canned is better than dry
and so on, with a ton of nuances in between too.

Overall, the conclusions most people arrived at were nothing more than parroting of what they heard from someone else. Even when you get to the source it may be questionable. So instead of looking for opinion I figured I want definitive scientifically tested/based information.

The best I could find is this Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats put out by the National Research Council. I couldn't afford the book and can't find one at a local library (except for a few Universities far away) so I dug further and found the following "Cliffs Notes" version of the research paper available for free: Your Dog's Nutritional Needs.

So, I finally found the holy grail, however given the information I'm still confused about the following:
1. Is there a commercial pet food which will provide everything as outlined in the paper?
2. How would I go about providing all the nutrients which are needed if I go the DIY route?
3. If I find a high quality kibble which provides my dog with the proper amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, etc. will it be good enough or must I get canned/raw?
4. If kibble is ok, is there a need to wet it, so that it gets hydrated? I've read that hydration within the stomach can cause problems such as bloat -- unconfirmed.
5. Any tips for balancing quality and price?
6. Does the diet HAVE to be varied? For example, anything wrong with always using chicken or beef? Do you need to have other animals, organs, etc?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I realize that I'm asking for opinions, but I would prefer opinions based on extensive research instead of just parroting back something you've heard. Right now it's between Wellness Core, Innova EVO and frozen chicken bits in a varied diet. The intake requirement for my dog is about 1lb/day and I'd like to keep the cost at no more than $2/day or so.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I even in the right forum for this?!

Thanks!

While it's true there is a very vocal RAW contingent here, in the end you need to look at what is best for you and your dog. IMHO you are on the right track by doing some serious research; hell it took me well over a month to decide what to switch Zio to. ;)

I agree that dogs are carnivores and that keeping carbs either out of a dog's diet or to a minimum would be a good idea. That being said, some people (myself included) are either not comfortable feeding raw or have a lifestyle that doesn't adapt well to this type of feeding program. So we find the best commercial product we can knowing that quality food is more likely to cost less in the long run because you are actually feeding LESS of it than the cheap stuff.

Case in point: Zio was getting 4 cups of Brand X which one of his trainer's suggested. However, as a very active hunting breed, he had problems keeping weight on. Plus there was a fair bit of waste. I did a lot of homework and eventually came upon EVO Large Bites Turkey & Chicken (grainless). Almost immediately he began putting on good weight (not the excess, flabby kind, but the "now he doesn't look like a starving stray from some village in Africa" type). If he was in the show ring they'd think him still too skinny, but he is in prime "field condition" for a GSP.

We will supplement his food with more protein (cooked chicken, hamburger) when he has been field trialing or hunting. Generally he runs about 30 mins daily; more obviously when he's "working". However, usually he gets his 2 1/2 cups of EVO/day with the odd carrot just because he likes them. (No nutritional value for a dog, but a big one will keep him out of mischief for a little while.) Or pan juices from some meat we've cooked for ourselves on his food. He's currently at about 58# and will be 3 at the end of May.

Sorry for the somewhat rambling reply, but I hope I've been able to give you a little insight into what we do to keep Zio going strong.

Bonne chance,

[spookychick13]

Honestly, I think Gris is one of the nicest looking Corgi's I've seen...hair/coat/eyes and he's NOT overweight, which they usually always are.

I am excited to see how Chesney is going to look too.

[kevin bradley]

you know what is hard?...PROVING that any type of food or feeding method IS superior. You can't find a lot of conclusive studies even saying that Orijen is better than Pedigree.

But I can't find a lot of CONCLUSIVE studies saying much of anything. There is always debate.

All that said, it doesn't take a scientist to look at the Orijen/Evo ingredient list vs. most others and be completely blown away. Salmon, Fresh Chicken, Walleye, no Ethoxyquin Vs. Meat By products, Corn, Fillers, Ethoxyquin....you're right people...I have no STUDY to PROVE what's better. But what I do have is COMMON SENSE.

[spookychick13]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...you have to do what works for you and YOUR DOG individually.
It's trial and error...eventually you find what works and go with it.

I don't need a scientific study to tell me what works for me and my dogs.
In fact, I don't need a scientific study to tell me what isn't working for the ton of miserable, itchy, overweight, stinky and rotten toothed dogs I see every single day at work either.

I agree, it's common sense.

[Jodysmom]

To the OP...I started feeding raw out of necessity. I rescued an underweight German Shepherd. I started out feeding a high protein dog food but her stool was loose and she wasn't gaining weight. I knew dogs craved/needed high protein but all of the high protein foods seemed to rich for her..she couldn't absorb the nutrients. My vet suggested a cheaper quality kibble and told me "the proof is in the stool" but when I read the ingredients the protein was very low. If I wanted my GSD to gain weight and absorb the nutrients in food I would have to switch to an easily digestible diet..raw food. I don't have scientific research to back it up, just personal experience.

Corgi Paws..your dogs looks awesome! I would disregard the negative comments.

[Jester]

First of all, thanks for all the replies, everyone!

RawFedDogs, don't think that I'm being recalcitrant with my response, but I want to make sure I'm getting all the right information and understanding it all correctly. I'm the type to question everything, so please bear with me.

Dogs are carnivores. Thats a fact.
.
.
No supplements are needed as all their nutritional needs are met through meat, bones, and organs. This statement has been proven through millions of years of evolution.

I understand, however I've read that when a wolf would eat prey it gets some nutrients from the stomach of the prey. Is this incorrect?

I have never read the book you mention, however, I have seen the website you link to many times. This is a pamphlet written by one person BASED ON the book. It assumes that dogs are omnivores which they can't be. Since they can't digest nor extract nutrients from plant matter they CAN'T be omnivores.

This pamphlet lists the daily recommended allowances for all nutrients EXCEPT carbs. Wonder why that is? Because there are no nutritoinal need for carbs.

Not quite the holy grail, now is it? Holy grails don't have a lot of errors in them nor do holy grails make such erroneous assumptions.

I can only go based on the pamphlet, since I don't have access to the book, but I don't understand how you can claim 'erroneous assumptions' when this is studied scientifically and the reports are generated based on observable evidence. Additionally, if they don't mention carbs, then aren't they on the same side of the proverbial fence as you or am I missing something? How would you suggest getting the nutrients since -- if I understand you correctly -- you stated that everything a dog needs can be derived directly from meat?

There is a nutrient profile listed on every bag of dog food. You should be able to find your answer there.

Good point; I've only been looking at ingredients.

Feed raw meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone and some organs. Period. All that is needed is contained in them. If that were not true, there would not be any dogs in the world today? Do you think dogs have been fed kibble or canned dog food forever?

I know their ancestors, the wolves, haven't, but is it possible that they've evolved a little past that and may require something the wolves don't? Just putting it out there .

Now you go to all the trouble trying to find the best food for your dog and now at this late date you mess up the whole equation by inserting price?

Would you have optimum health if you ate exactly the same thing every meal?

Yes, I have to insert price. It's unfortunate, but most of us are constrained by reality.

Again, not to sound snide, but I actually have a friend who's retired and eats pretty much the same thing each and every day. He has a very regimented diet and exercise and he's one of the healthiest/best looking people I know for his age. People constantly think he's 20-25 years younger than he is. As long as the diet contains everything you need optimum health isn't impacted -- just your taste/desire for it. At least that's my anecdotal evidence.

If you are serious about learning, you came to the right place. If you just want to start a discussion, you also came to the right place.

I came to learn and I appreciate your reply.

Thank you