Carbs for Dogs

[3DogMom]

Information from a breeder (of 30 years) and a vet (a close friend and of 15 years)....dogs NEED carbs. Their diet should be 2/3 carbs and 1/3 protein.....dogs have been domesticated for many thousands of years and have evolved....YES, they have!!! They absolutely need protein...some need more then others. You need to discuss what your dogs needs are with your vet or with support of a knowledgeable canine specialist (eg. reputable breeder). Is your dog active, working, sedentary...does your dog have any health issues? All of this needs to be considered!!! The information on here could be from someone who considers themselves a "specialist" however they may just be an average person. Take all the information you have and consult someone IN PERSON!!!

My experience....my beautiful Labrador fell ill to either stomach ulcers (she suffers from terrible anxiety) or from gastroenteritis (vomitting blood - large amounts). She was critically ill for many days. Once home the first food she ate was greek yogourt for the probiotics, followed by brown rice and eventually a protein (plain chicken). This was continued for weeks as her digestive system was so traumatized. She ate 2/3 carbs with 1/3 protein and was in the best condition of her life...her eyes shone, her anxiety was decreased, her coat while always shinny was even brighter and she recovered beautifully from a disorder that often is fatal.

Her history...she has always had loose stools and digestive issues. I used pumpkin often to support her digestive system and it was extrememly helpful. What finally fixed the digestive issues (after weeks of research as she recovered)...potatoes, recommended to me many times by my aunt who is the breeder I mention. Her shedding is the lowest it has EVER been (she's almost 9), her stools are the firmest and smallest they have ever been and her energy level and anxiety are at "normal" levels. She remains at 2/3 carbs and 1/3 protein

Read others experiences, take all the information into account but always talk to a vet or a reputable breeder to determine YOUR dogs needs. What is good for one dog is not always for another, much like the human world that dogs have evolved within!

Good luck and the fact you have read all of this proves you will decide what is BEST for your beloved pet!!!

[Unosmom]

In the Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition (2nd edition, 1988), we read that
"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."

How can this be? Let us discuss just how the dog and cat are able to fulfill their requirement for glucose through a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.

Carbohydrates do provide quick and easy energy. However, it is not 'carbs' that maintain the health of the organs listed in the quotes above, but glucose. Glucose can be obtained from both fat and protein through a process known as gluconeogenesis, where amino acids and fat (not fatty acids; those use a different cycle) are "converted" to glucose. If carbs are present, though, they will be converted to energy first before fat and protein because they are easier to use. This is the reason that carbs regulate how much starch and fat will be broken down and utilized. If there is a plethora of carbohydrates, fat will be stored instead of used. If there are not enough carbs to fulfill energy needs, then fat will be converted to glucose and used. If no carbs are present, then fat and protein are used to fill energy needs.

Excess carbohydrates are stored in the liver and the muscles as glycogen AND in the body as fat. However, since carboydrates are not the only source of glycogen (which also comes from proteins and fats through a process known as glyconeogenesis), they are not absolutely necessary. Human athletes commonly perform 'carbo loading' techniques where they eat huge carby meals of things like pasta to rapidly replenish their glycogen stores in their muscles and liver before a competition. The carbohydrates, when in excess, are more rapidly converted and stored as glycogen compared to fat and protein. HOWEVER, once again, fat and protein can also be stored as glycogen, which makes carbohydrates unnecessary unless you want to perform 'carbo loading'. I believe it is Purina that has capitalized on this and now has "energy bars" of complex carbohydrates for the canine athlete to help them recover more quickly between events. But, carbohydrates do not rebuild spent muscle tissue, etc. Protein does that. Fat is also easily utilized for quick energy, too, and provides more energy per gram that carbohydrate does.

It is not low carbohydrate intake that causes things like cardiac symptoms and angina; it is low blood glucose. If there is not enough glucose in the blood system, then you run into many problems including black outs, cardiac symptoms (like arrhythmia), and angina (chest pain). Of course, it is interesting that wolves can go without food for weeks and still survive well enough. How do they do that without eating carbs? Simple: they use up fat reserves and may even dip into their own muscle to get the necessary proteins and fats to provide glucose and energy for their bodies. So carbohydrates themselves are not actually necessary; glucose is necessary, and that can be obtained from protein and fat.

What about the brain? The brain is preferentially given glucose above all other organs. Glucose in its ready form, at that. But does this mean carbohydrates are necessary? Since glucose can be had from fat and protein as well, then no.

What about the claim of protein and fat—when converted to energy—weakening the immune system? This seems to be taken from human research where athletes in intensive training had suppressed immune systems which could be improved by consuming proper amounts of carbohydrate. Additionally, white blood cell production in humans seems linked to glucose production. More glucose present means the body is better able to mount an immune response—until there is "too much" glucose around and insulin spikes and starts suppressing all other pathways in the body except for those needed to force the glucose into cells (fat cells). High amounts of simple carbohydrates and sugars are known to suppress the immune system. If this is the case, though, one could wonder how a diet high in grain affects our pets—overstimulation of the immune system due to high concentrations of glucose from the grain? Perhaps this is why many pets suffer "allergies" while on grain!

One other comment I have here is that as long as the animal is receiving appropriate fat and protein, glucose production will not be an issue. And for carnivorous animals like dogs, I cannot help but wonder if their white blood cells are more sensitive to glucose than ours—meaning, less glucose is needed to "stimulate" canine white blood cell (WBC) production compared to human WBC production.

Using protein and fat for energy does not weaken the immune system unless there is not enough to go around, so to speak. If someone is starving, then using protein and fats for energy—while necessary—is a little 'cost-intensive' on the body. But it is not the lack of carbs that is hurting them; it is the simple lack of enough food. Similarly, a human athlete in intensive training may overwork their body to the point that using protein and fats for fuel becomes too cost-intensive to their body.

What about poor hair growth and constant shedding resulting from a lack of carbohydrates? Can these indicate a 'need' for carbs? Maybe, but more likely it indicates a need for better overall nutrition. I personally have NEVER heard of 'carbohydrate deficiency' in any animal. Why? Because there is NO SUCH THING as a "necessary carbohydrate," just necessary glucose. Our bodies, and our dogs' bodies, can do without carbohydrates (although I would say our dogs would fare better than humans, since we are omnivores who do well with fresh vegetables in our diet—except for some cultures that eat mostly meat!). Fats and proteins can be converted easily to necessary glucose. Poor hair growth and constant shedding are linked to an overall poor diet, poor consumption of essential fatty acids, biotin deficiencies, some vitamin and mineral deficiencies, AND a lack of good fats and proteins in the diet. PROTEIN, not carbohydrate, is the building block for hair and skin and all other parts of the body. Carbohydrates do nothing for building and maintaining the body structures except provide easy glucose to fuel the rebuilding process.

What about thyroid function? Thyroid function is dependent upon the correct amount of GLUCOSE produced by the dog's body, not by the correct amount of carbohydrates in the diet. Too much glucose from easily available carbohydrate energy sources can cause just as many problems as not enough glucose. Since we have already established that glucose can be produced from fat and protein, then it would again seem that carbohydrates are actually unnecessary provided that there is enough protein and fat to go around (and a raw diet has PLENTY!).

B compounds, or B vitamins, are found not only in the dog's own intestine (bacteria produce some B vitamins) but also in the meat and organs of prey animals. Feeding a variety of organ meats as part of a proper raw diet will cover the B-vitamin requirement quite easily. One has to wonder: how much of the B compounds in grain and starch and veggies is actually available to the dog? Compared to something more bioavailable like liver, then I would say 'not much.'

Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?

[RawFedDogs]

Information from a breeder (of 30 years) and a vet (a close friend and of 15 years)....dogs NEED carbs.

Those are the two worst sources for nutritional information. Most breeders recommend the absolute worst of the worst kibbles. This is mainly because, "I've fed Purina Puppy Chow (or whatever brand) to my puppies for 30 years and they have always done well." Canine nutritional knowledge has increased greatly in the last 30 years and breeders aren't known for their research in these areas. Vets are just as bad. Vets take ONE course in animal nutrition during their studies to be a vet and that covers all domestic animals not just dogs. So they spend one quarter studying nutrition for all animals, how much time could be spent on dogs? Not much. Basically vets know what the dog food reps tell them when they visit their office. And you know what the dog food reps are going to tell them. So these two sources for your nutritional information are very poor sources.

Their diet should be 2/3 carbs and 1/3 protein...

How are you going to get these carbs into them? Their bodies are designed to digest meat, bones, and organs and are very very inefficient at digesting plant matter.

..dogs have been domesticated for many thousands of years and have evolved....YES, they have!!!

They have evolved in size and appearance but their digestive systems haven't. Their internal organs haven't. Internally our domestic dogs are identical to wild wolves of today. That would indicate that the same diet is needed for both and I don't think you are going to say wild wolves eat a lot of carbs. There is nothing in the dogs body that needs carbs. I have an 11 1/2 year old Great Dane that hasn't had a carb in her diet in almost 10 years. I see no nutritional deficiency. I have an almost 7 year old Dane who has never had a carb in his life. He runs around like a young puppy.

You need to discuss what your dogs needs are with your vet or with support of a knowledgeable canine specialist (eg. reputable breeder).

Again, stopping the average person on the street and asking them would get you as good of canine nutritional information as you get from those two sources.

Is your dog active, working, sedentary...does your dog have any health issues? All of this needs to be considered!!!

They all need meat bones and orgsns. Some need more than others. The dog will tell you what he needs if you know how to understand him.

The information on here could be from someone who considers themselves a "specialist" however they may just be an average person. Take all the information you have and consult someone IN PERSON!!!

I am an average person. I have no degrees in anything. I have spent over 10 years researching canine nutrition. I am confident I have more knowledge about the subject than 98% of the vets or breeders in the country. I have 10 years experience feeding multiple dogs a diet of nothing but meat, bones, and organs. I know what I'm talking about. This is not new to me.

My experience....my beautiful Labrador fell ill to either stomach ulcers (she suffers from terrible anxiety) or from gastroenteritis (vomitting blood - large amounts). She was critically ill for many days.

I would bet good money that carbs in her diet caused those very problems. Dogs bodies are not designed to digest carbs. They can overwork the pancreas, liver and the whole GI tract. I can't tell you how many similar dogs I have seen whose problems cleared up within weeks of eating no carbs at all.

Once home the first food she ate was greek yogourt for the probiotics, followed by brown rice and eventually a protein (plain chicken). This was continued for weeks as her digestive system was so traumatized.

I'm sure it was.

She ate 2/3 carbs with 1/3 protein and was in the best condition of her life...her eyes shone, her anxiety was decreased, her coat while always shinny was even brighter and she recovered beautifully from a disorder that often is fatal.

So she got better in spite of your treatment. Good for her.

Her history...she has always had loose stools and digestive issues.

Thats a very common condition with dogs that eat carbs. Their bodies can't handle carbs.

I used pumpkin often to support her digestive system and it was extrememly helpful.

Pumpkin masks the symptoms. It does nothing to cure the problem. Pumpkin absorbs water in the GI tract causing stools to be more solid. It does not help the problem that caused loose stools.

What finally fixed the digestive issues (after weeks of research as she recovered)...potatoes, recommended to me many times by my aunt who is the breeder I mention.

Thats just more absorption of water in the GI tract. Potatoes do the same thing as the pumpkin. They are not eliminating the cause of poor digestion they are just masking the symptom. If you don't believe me, stop potatoes and pumpkin for a week or so and see what happens.

Her shedding is the lowest it has EVER been (she's almost 9), her stools are the firmest and smallest they have ever been and her energy level and anxiety are at "normal" levels. She remains at 2/3 carbs and 1/3 protein

These are subjective things that you have no measurement for. How much did she shed before? How much is she shedding now? You have no way to measure. Yes stools are smaller and firmer because of the water being absorbed in the GI tract by potatoes and pumpkin. Eliminate those from the diet and see what happens. Energy level and anxiety are pretty difficult to measure also.

Read others experiences, take all the information into account but always talk to a vet or a reputable breeder to determine YOUR dogs needs. What is good for one dog is not always for another, much like the human world that dogs have evolved within!

I have been reading others experiences and talking to them and working with them for 10 years. Meat, bones, and organs is ALL a carnivore (dog) needs for perfect health and happiness. What is good for one dog is exactly whats good for them all. Dogs have not evolved within. If you think they have, please enlighten me. What is different internally between a dog and a wild wolf? I say nothing.

Good luck and the fact you have read all of this proves you will decide what is BEST for your beloved pet!!!

Hehe, did that 10 years ago. Thats why my dog's diets are carb free and have been for almost 10 years.

I hope you read that entire link that Unosmom posted. Lots of good information on that page and in all the "Myths" pages. I know the lady who wrote all those pages. Used to converse with her a lot back in my early raw feeding days. Carrie is a very impressive person and has great credentials. I have great respect for her and her knowledge.

ETA: Welcome to the board. Hope you become a regular member here and enjoy your stay. You will learn a lot.

[Caty M]

1/3 protein, 2/3 carbs.. where's the fat? Fat is necessary to dogs... mine probably eat 2/3 protein, 1/3 fat. From 8 weeks. They are lookin' good! Far better than the dogs you see eating a carb based diet.

By the way- my vet feeds prey model raw- no carbs.

[meggels]

Just playing devil's advocate here but Bill...

You say that just because a breeder has fed puppy chow for years and their dogs are 'doing well' does not mean that's someone that you should listen to. But doesn't that sort of hold true for raw feeding as well?


I'm just having a hard time lately with the concept that PMR style raw is the best for every.single.dog (barring any medical conditions of course).

[Caty M]

Everyone should do their own research and not just listen solely to one person.. whether it be for feeding kibble OR raw.

Why do you believe that Meggels? It's far and away the closest to a natural diet barring whole prey (which I'd love to do but can't)...

[Liz]

Part of the problem is what people call "doing well". I know breeders who have pups that really are not really doing well. They survive and are no worse than other dogs but they are not thriving. They have adequate coats that really don't shine, they have yuck teeth, rotten breath, low energy or nutsy energy, low focus, erratic behavior, etc. I am sadly speaking from experience. My dogs were always ok on the food they got even low grade kibble. We never had huge problems. The difference on raw is night and day. My current dogs and pups just glow. Their behavior is calm and playful, they are happy, exuberant but not obnoxious. My dogs can focus longer, train easier and display very few behavior problems. Their looks are amazing and even my old almost 12 year old boy acts like a youngster and is showing no signs of even arthritis. They are clean smelling, fresh breathed and have lovely teeth. I could go on and on but you get the picture. Ok and thriving are two vastly different things. Personally I want my pups to thrive nto just be O.K.

[Jacksons Mom]

I'm iffy about the whole thing. I just don't think raw is the best option for EVERY dog, just like kibble does not work for EVERY dog. I totally get, understand, and preach that dogs are, internally at least, like wolves. It just makes SENSE to me. At the same time, a wolf would not be getting handed freshly cut meat from the butcher or the grocery store like most raw feeders feed, either. They would also not be getting vet care, they wouldn't get bathes, they wouldn't get their nails clipped, and all the other special perks we do for our dogs. In general, I would say carbs are NOT beneficial to dogs, but I also don't think they are all necessarily harmful, either, and some may do better with more.

Also, domesticated dogs each have their own set of problems within each breed. Schnauzers, for example, are VERY prone to pancreatitis due to the high levels of lipoproteins in their blood streams, as are Silky's and Yorkies. These are issues wolves would not be dealing with...

So, I do believe that every dog is an individual. I think raw is great for those that thrive and do well on it. I wouldn't hesitate to feed it if I had the desire to and my dog did not have special dietary needs. Granted, when I was feeding pre-made raw, I did not notice a big difference from him being kibble fed (on "high quality" kibble), so I really don't see how he would be benefiting from it when his coat is already really shiny, his teeth are pretty darn good for a 3 year old Yorkie who never gets 'em brushed, he never has any ear infections or other bacterial stuff, he's in really good shape, great energy levels, very active, poops are great, etc, etc, etc. So, to me, I don't really think it'd be all that worth it to feed it, especially when my dog was super picky and would often not eat the pre-made raw at all... which, in turn, would be a big waste of money. Knowing him, if I gave him a raw chicken thigh or something, he'd just whine and carry it around and never eat it. I'd consider trying pre-made raw again if I could find one low in fat.

I do agree that "doing well" means different things to so many people. But to me, it means a healthy coat, solid firm (but not TOO firm) poop, good energy level, healthy teeth and good breath, and stuff like that. I've seen some say their dog is doing fine on Kibbles n Bits but I see a dog that is overweight, horrendous breath and teeth, smelly ears, lots of poop, but... since they are still happy and wagging their tail, they must be doing well, right?

[magicre]

since this is in the dry and canned dog food section, i will merely say i disagree with the OP's post.

[meggels]

I think it's a great concept, don't get me wrong. I guess what I have a problem with lately is the holier than thou attitude when it comes to pmr feeding. I think many dogs can thrive (not just survive) on high quality kibbles. I just think sometimes there's an overwhelming attitude of life or death when it comes to raw vs kibble....