Corn used as a Dog Food Ingredient

[rannmiller]

According to Case, Carey and Hirakawa in Canine and Feline Nutrition, page 174,

"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins. The protein in grains is not as balanced or available as the protein in high-quality animal sources…" Grain Based or Meat Based Diets For Dogs and Cats...What Is The Difference?

Seems to be a pretty informative website, I know it's been linked here in another thread by another poster, but it's been a while.

[rannmiller]

TJ, I got this from your link

Because dogs are descended from omnivores, they
are not strict meat eaters.

What omnivores are dogs descended from? I really could've sworn that wolves are carnivores, unless dogs are actually descended from crows, hedgehogs, pigs, primates, bears, or raccoons? And maybe the whole wolf thing is just a conspiracy.

And whoever told us we should read about dogs on wikipedia to support their omnivore claims on the species, you're right, I was surprised, because it says that dogs are carnivores and still retain the traits of their original descendants, the gray wolf. Hmmmmmm....

Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the article on wolves siting the differences between wolves and dogs says nothing of their digestive tracts being different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#Ph...al_differences

This is getting redundant at this point.

[TJ99959]

TJ, I got this from your link



What omnivores are dogs descended from? I really could've sworn that wolves are carnivores, unless dogs are actually descended from crows, hedgehogs, pigs, primates, bears, or raccoons? And maybe the whole wolf thing is just a conspiracy.

And whoever told us we should read about dogs on wikipedia to support their omnivore claims on the species, you're right, I was surprised, because it says that dogs are carnivores and still retain the traits of their original descendants, the gray wolf. Hmmmmmm....

Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the article on wolves siting the differences between wolves and dogs says nothing of their digestive tracts being different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#Ph...al_differences

This is getting redundant at this point.

So you wish to dispute the national academy of science. interesting

Gotta say it, so far your source material is pretty lame

"Scientific research has shown that an adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to
50% carbohydrates by weight, including 2.5– 4.5% from fiber. A minimum of
approximately 5.5% of the diet should come from fats and 10% from protein"
National Academy Of Science

Note; those are limits, not what is suggested (max for carbs, minimum for fat & protein)

[rannmiller]

No, I'm asking what omnivorous descendent they are claiming dogs came from. Because they don't say and you sure as heck aren't telling me. Please enlighten me.

I don't care if they're the National Academy of We're Always Right, if they don't tell me how they reached the conclusion that dogs are descended from omnivores when they are descended from carnivores I'm going to just figure they're either A) confused and disoriented B) talking about another animal and accidently put in "dog" instead of "pig" C) are a little too hopped up on their fancy title and academy name to actually realize what they're stating or D) paid by a major dog food company.

I was raised to question things that don't makes sense and don't seem right, and TJ, their claim does not seem to add up.

Just because someone with a fancy title tells me it's so it doesn't mean I'm going to believe them.

Just because some vet wears a white coat and says "Vaccinating your dogs every year is great for their health and by the way here's a bag of Science Diet, it's the best!" doesn't mean I'm going to believe them. Or "Sure Reno doesn't have a flea or tick problem but you should put deadly neurotoxins on your pet every month anyway just in case" doesn't mean I'm going to believe them.

I don't care how "lame" you think my sources are, if it comes down to choosing between common sense and some moron on a pedestal, I'm going to go with common sense. I'm going to go with the person who has their pet's best interests at heart, not the one who has their wallet's best interest at heart. Because in the end, the best interests of my pets is going to save me a ton more money in vet bills and heartache than the added convenience of feeding corn ever will.

/end rant.

[TJ99959]

if they don't tell me how they reached the conclusion that dogs are descended from omnivores when they are descended from carnivores i'm going to just figure they're either a) confused and disoriented b) talking about another animal and accidently put in "dog" instead of "pig" c) are a little too hopped up on their fancy title and academy name to actually realize what they're stating or d) paid by a major dog food company.

buy the book

again
here is the link
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats

Which one would you like me to have give you a call? --NOT--
You guys quack my up ROFLMO

Dr DONALD C. BEITZ PhD, Iowa State University
Dr JOHN E. BAUER Phd, Texas A&M University
Dr KEITH C. BEHNKE PhD, Kansas State University
DAVID A. DZANIS, Dzanis Consulting & Collaborations
Dr GEORGE C. FAHEY PhD, University Of Illinois
Dr RICHARD C. Hill PhD, University Of Florida
Dr FRANCIS A. KAllFELZ PhD, Cornell University
Dr EllEN KIENZLE PhD, Zentrum Fur lebensmittel Und lierernahrung, Oberschleissheim, Germany
Dr JAMES G. MORRIS PhD, University Of California, Davis
Dr QUINTON R. ROGERS PhD, University Of California, Davis

[LoveNewfies]

Your link to "Your Dog's Nutritional Needs" is lame at best. Just because it states that the main energy sources are from carbohydrates, proteins and fats does not mean carbohydrates are ideal. This is where dog food companies get their energy sources. Again I'll ask, if carbohydrate sources are so great for dogs, why do we have to process them for dogs to utilize them as efficiently (or at least reasonably efficiently) as meat and fat? And the same goes for vegetable matter. I'm not disputing that a dog can get energy from carbohydrate sources, nor am I disputing the fact that dogs will eat them along with vegetable matter (most dogs, anyway), I am disputing the fact that any carbohydrate source can provide as complete and natural a protein source as meat.

I have most of the literature you have. I also know the nutritional requirements of cats and dogs according to NRC and AAFCO and carbohydrates are NOT part of those nutritional requirements. I have to admit that I find this interesting given WHO establishes these nutritional requirements. As I've stated in previous posts, dog food manufacturers use carbohydrate sources to increase caloric content, bind the kibble and provide protein percentages on their packaging that mislead consumers into thinking they are buying a food high in meat protein, what a dog truly needs.

I don't care if you classify a dog as a carnivore or an omnivore. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what studies you want to throw out there, dogs are carnivores, regardless of what classification of carnivore you want to label them. There is just as much scientific research out there stating this as there is stating they are omnivores. Maybe more, I haven't read every study.

I have numerous years of personal experience with dogs and their nutritional needs - what works for dogs and what doesn't - what kinds of problems are seen when an improper diet is fed and how greatly those problems improve after changing to a more appropriate diet. Yes, I feed raw, but not every dog I deal with is fed raw so I'm not preaching just raw here, I'm talking about getting rid of the stuff in a dog's diet that is harming the dogs from the inside out, and that means carbohydrates. I work directly through several vets in my area and the vets send these dogs to me because, even though they sell Hills and the like, they are aware of what proper nutrition can do to help many, many problems and that proper nutrition is not found in your average grain laden food.

[TJ99959]

Your link to "Your Dog's Nutritional Needs" is lame at best. Just because it states that the main energy sources are from carbohydrates, proteins and fats does not mean carbohydrates are ideal. This is where dog food companies get their energy sources. Again I'll ask, if carbohydrate sources are so great for dogs, why do we have to process them for dogs to utilize them as efficiently (or at least reasonably efficiently) as meat and fat? And the same goes for vegetable matter. I'm not disputing that a dog can get energy from carbohydrate sources, nor am I disputing the fact that dogs will eat them along with vegetable matter (most dogs, anyway), I am disputing the fact that any carbohydrate source can provide as complete and natural a protein source as meat.

I have most of the literature you have. I also know the nutritional requirements of cats and dogs according to NRC and AAFCO and carbohydrates are NOT part of those nutritional requirements. I have to admit that I find this interesting given WHO establishes these nutritional requirements. As I've stated in previous posts, dog food manufacturers use carbohydrate sources to increase caloric content, bind the kibble and provide protein percentages on their packaging that mislead consumers into thinking they are buying a food high in meat protein, what a dog truly needs.

I don't care if you classify a dog as a carnivore or an omnivore. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what studies you want to throw out there, dogs are carnivores, regardless of what classification of carnivore you want to label them. There is just as much scientific research out there stating this as there is stating they are omnivores. Maybe more, I haven't read every study.

I have numerous years of personal experience with dogs and their nutritional needs - what works for dogs and what doesn't - what kinds of problems are seen when an improper diet is fed and how greatly those problems improve after changing to a more appropriate diet. Yes, I feed raw, but not every dog I deal with is fed raw so I'm not preaching just raw here, I'm talking about getting rid of the stuff in a dog's diet that is harming the dogs from the inside out, and that means carbohydrates. I work directly through several vets in my area and the vets send these dogs to me because, even though they sell Hills and the like, they are aware of what proper nutrition can do to help many, many problems and that proper nutrition is not found in your average grain laden food.

There is just as much scientific research out there stating this as there is stating they are omnivores.

Post it!

Another that knows better than the actual science.
Get real, You have been proven wrong
You have no argument left

[TJ99959]

I'm out of here, you guys are close minded fenatics that think you can save the world.

[Postal]

Ok, if it's links, sources and readings you want; you got it, bud.

...telling me to turn on Oprah because Dr. Marty Goldstein, DVM, just told millions of Americans that the ideal diet for the carnivores living amongst us is raw meat. It’s about time. And I’m glad something good is coming out of the whole debacle with processed pet food. More and more people are wondering what is really in the stuff in the brightly colored bags and cans. The recall story is much, much bigger than we were originally led to believe, and if they were to be accurately counted, all evidence points to numbers pushing 10,000 or more dead dogs and cats, and that’s not counting the ones who suffered permanent kidney damage.

Quoted from: “dogs should eat raw meat”

---------------------

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/nu...ncomments.html

--------------------

Here's a website full of quotes and information:
Canine Cuisine: The Obligate Carnivore

------------------------

Let me know if you need anymore for now. I'll keep them coming

In times of famine, when meat is scarce, wolves may eat other foods, out of desperation, just as you or I may eat unpalatable foods to avoid starvation, but their natural diet is meat, only meat. They get any vegetation, and nutrients from that vegetation, from the stomachs of their prey. The prey's stomach contents are already partially digested, which aids the wolf's own system, as it's not designed to digest vegetation properly.

Dogs are directly related to wolves, and their digestive system is the same. Dogs are not omnivores. They are carnivores. They should be respected as such.

[Postal]

I'm out of here, you guys are close minded fenatics that think you can save the world.

Hello, pot? This is kettle. You're black